Drunk Objectivists

[4reason]

I always avoided drinking for the longest time because the thought of what that substance had the capacity to do to one's mind frightened me. That's the same reason why I never tried any drugs. Even at my lowest levels of self-esteem in the past, I valued my mind too much to hinder its proper function.

Now some alcohol does have health benefits, and knowing that I have only recently (within the last few years) started tryingsome sips of alcohol here and there (probably no more than twelve sips total in my life, though) but find, quite honestly, that I just don't like the taste. It's bitter. Now, does that aversion stem solely from my taste buds or am I inserting some sort of value judgment into it from the get go that prevents me from liking the taste at all? It's probably a combination of the two. I have nothing against people who drink, but I am honestly annoyed and confused by people who get drunk. Really getting to know other people or be comfortable around other people seems like it requires one to understand himself, and I don't understand how hindering one's mind can achieve that. To me, the desire to be drunk indicates some level of unhappiness with reality that one is having trouble coming to terms with. An evasion of sorts, if you will. Then again, I never have been drunk, but know I never will make myself get drunk either -- not even just to see what it's like. I keep trying to find a good red wine that I can tolerate now and then (because that does have health benefits) but have not even succeeded in that yet.

And I don't think there are a whole lot of Objectivists out there who do get drunk, at least not that I've seen. Most objectivists I know tend to just sip on a glass or two while they sit back and relax. Maybe that has to do with the settings I interact with other objectivists in, though -- such as group dinners, book clubs, and lecture events. Not a whole lot of room for drunken craziness at those kinds of events; nor do they seem to attract that kind of personality.

[lex_aver]

I don't like the way alcohol makes me feel, even after a drink or two - namely, less in control of my own mind, and with dulled perception and clarity.

That is great argument against drinking at work, but when it's pasttime, relaxation and mood improvement can be benefatical. In moderation, of course.

I spent the night beating the pants off the computer at twitch video games, so it didn't slow down my reflexes any.

Yeah, I still can't beat Ravin' Rabbids record I set on my birthday party.

Boy, can I relate to that!

Heh, you look pretty good for a sweet tooth.

[D'kian]

but find, quite honestly, that I just don't like the taste. It's bitter. Now, does that aversion stem solely from my taste buds or am I inserting some sort of value judgment into it from the get go that prevents me from liking the taste at all?

It is an acquired taste. If you want to acquire it you ought to start with sweet wines, like communion wine, and work your way to dryer ones. There are books for novice wine drinkers (I've never read any of them, but some people I know swear by them). Or you may try a wine club.

[lex_aver]

I just don't like the taste. It's bitter.

I had the same complaint when I started eating olives. And bitter chocolate (especially truffles). And drinking coffee. It is interesting that of all four basic tastes, bitterness is the only one that most people find unpleasant.

Edited January 4, 2008 by lex_aver

[FeatherFall]

You can enjoy a glass of wine, or a screwdriver, or a piña colada, for its taste, texture, aroma, etc without feeling any effects.

Alcohol isn't unique in that respect. One could enjoy the flavor of absinthe or the smell of tobacco, marijuana or opium. I'd agree with Dan that the mood changing effects of drugs are essentially the same - what you say about one has to apply in some degree to the others. If you accept that a slight mood enhancement from alcohol is ok in principle, you must accept that similar effects from other drugs are ok too. If mood enhancement is ok, I'd be interested to know what principles govern when to start and stop.

[DavidOdden]

It is interesting that of all four basic tastes, bitterness is the only one that most people find unpleasant.

Conveniently correlated with properties of poisonous plants. There is apparently genetic variation in ability to taste bitterness in phenylthiocarbamide and 6-n-propylthiouracil, which may relate to hatred of bitter tastes. There may be a straightforward reason why I love hyper-bitter beers and espresso.

[athena glaukopis]

I have nothing against people who drink, but I am honestly annoyed and confused by people who get drunk. Really getting to know other people or be comfortable around other people seems like it requires one to understand himself, and I don't understand how hindering one's mind can achieve that. To me, the desire to be drunk indicates some level of unhappiness with reality that one is having trouble coming to terms with. An evasion of sorts, if you will.

That is the conclusion that I have come to as well.

[D'kian]

If you accept that a slight mood enhancement from alcohol is ok in principle, you must accept that similar effects from other drugs are ok too.

Well, then, what about the mood altering effect of sitting down? Or of taking off your shoes after a long day of standing on your feet? Is that ok? How many people do you know who grow grouchy towards lunchtime, yet are perfectly even tempered once they've eaten?

Mood changes throughout the day for various reasons, most having little or nothing to do with drugs.

[Shinja]

I find that those who eschew all drink as a matter of "rationality" are I think taking things a bit too far. If you don't like it, great, but recognize that there can be value to it in the proper context. There is nothing intrinsically anti-life about alcohol.

It was only until quite recently that I realised this. I read an alcohol related subject on this forum about two years ago when I first discovered Oism and as I remember the general consensus was that alcohol was immoral in any way shape or form. So with that in mind I stopped going to bars and clubs with my friends because I viewed them as inherently immoral, but I couldn't keep it up so I went through stages of working hard and regretting not going out, and then when it got too much I'd go out and drink to excess but neglect my work.

The trouble is that here in the UK we have a terrible culture of binge drinking and if you can't 'down' a pint of beer you're a 'poof' (fag). It's pretty hard for someone without a firm foundation of self-esteem to resist this kind of peer pressure.

It is interesting that of all four basic tastes, bitterness is the only one that most people find unpleasant.

Beer tastes horrible, I can bear to drink a pint or two but I could never drink it normally with the same enjoyment as I would a glass of orange juice.

[Old Toad]

Strictly speaking Objectivists, as people who value and consistently practice the virtue of Rationality do not get stinking drunk.

I strongly agree with this -- even as I enjoy a beer.

Students of Oism may consume excess alcohol for bad reasons, I was one of them, but hopefully they view it as unacceptable and are working on phasing it out.

I never drank to excess for bad reasons, though I have never met you.

Beer tastes horrible, I can bear to drink a pint or two but I could never drink it normally with the same enjoyment as I would a glass of orange juice.

I think people tend to like more bitter tastes with increasing age. I think it may go beyond just acquired taste, but rather suspect it may have biological reasons? I notice that I used to enjoy very sweet tastes, like sodas and malt shakes, but seem to be moving to enjoy bitter tastes, like coffee and beer, more and more as I get older. In comparing with some others in my age bracket (mid 40's), I often hear the same thing.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Old Toad

[lex_aver]

I used to enjoy very sweet tastes, like sodas and malt shakes, but seem to be moving to enjoy bitter tastes, like coffee and beer, more and more as I get older.

Same here, although I'm just 18. I think love of sugar is caused by active development of child's brain, which needs carbohydrates as it grows. I don't know about bitterness, but yesterday I found that most of the snack and drinks I enjoyed were slightly bitter.

[Carrier of the Zero]

I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a 'buzz' once in a while, if it's a special occasion with friends or whatnot. It can be a fun way to celebrate, as long as you're not losing your self-control.

That being said, I never liked the taste or the effect of alcohol. I never understood what the appeal of smoking cigarettes was either; I smoked them for a while, and they did nothing for me. I could feel no difference between breathing regular air and breathing poisonous air. I did smoke weed regularly when I was younger; I know that's anathema to most Objectivists, but it's basically the most innocuous, harmless substance on the planet. I will defend weed forever, even though I no longer smoke it; it did not warp my senses, or interrupt the functioning of my mind. It did not prevent me from thinking logically, it did not make me lose interest in intellectual activities or my other hobbies. It was certainly not an escape from reality or responsibility. It was just a pleasant state of euphoria and relaxation. I still view it as no different than coffee or a soft drink; most people have a coffee break, whereas I had a marijuana break when I got home from college in the afternoons, and I still got A's in math classes and chemistry. I think weed gets a bad rep from people who've never tried it because it's associated with hippies, leftists, and probably the 'bad kids' you went to school with.

Anyway, to get back on the subject of alcohol... No, I never liked its effects. I did get stinking drunk once as a teenager, I guess just out of curiosity of what it would be like. That one time was enough for me; I never wanted to feel that again.

[John McVey]

I suppose my question spurs from my surprise in finding that many Oists are drinkers, and many of them go further than just a nice glass of BV. They get shtinkin' drunk.

...

I know, from the chat, that many of you got plastered over New Years. Why?

Sheesh, a fella makes one silly comment in chat and it turns into a Royal Commission. FWIW, I didn't get sloshed. True, I bought more alcohol that week than the previous ten years combined, but the total value was under $100 and 2/3 of it is still sitting untouched. (Tequila mixer 4-pack, a moscato, a muscat, an irish cream, and a tawny port gift pack, the untouched being the latter three)

My question is, how do you Oist drinkers out there morally justify your drunkenness? Or do you see it as immoral, but treat yourself to irrational behavior every once in a while?

Deliberately getting actually intoxicated, whether through alcohol or other means, ie the deliberate sabotage of one's ability to think and act rationally, is immoral. Someone who thinks intoxication is a treat needs to re-examine his values and other premises.

Has anybody here really, actually done that more than a half dozen times in their lives? Not just "over the .05 level", but hammered flat.

Once, at a buck's night, aged 20 (15 years ago) and before I became Objectivist. It was a very embarrassing night. The grand total number of times I have been under the weather (never mind actually shtinkin) is four. I paid for them all.

As to my prospective New Year's consumption that got Athena in a fluster, in the end I had just two of the 330ml (11floz?) Jose Cuervo Vivezos (7% alc tequila mixes) over the course of three hours. Since I rarely drink now, they were enough to make me slightly tizzy so I just had pepsi max after that.

I haven't found a drink that actually tastes good... There are some nice-tasting mixed drinks and cocktails, but would taste just as good or better without the alcohol.

Some drinks taste alright, but I haven't found one that I'd prefer over coffee or a pepsi (bugger coke). I haven't given up on wine totally yet, if only because so many rate wine so highly. Still, call me jaundiced but I doubt highly that there will ever be a wine that will prove tastier than pepsi and never mind justify its price tag.

And beer combines bitterness with the smells of fermentation.

Oddly, I think beer smells orright - drinking it is another matter. I'm not a fan, never have been, never will be. Some Aussie, huh?

It is an acquired taste. If you want to acquire it you ought to start with sweet wines, like communion wine, and work your way to dryer ones.

I am a sweet-tooth. Not only have I always been, but I've become even moreso and so at my age (35) I now imagine that I will probably remain a sweet-tooth for life. I've never respected this 'acquired taste' idea. WTF is the point of trying to force yourself to like something, especially when that something is objectively inferior to what you do like??

My father drinks one glass of wine a night, and given the occasion (and that there are supposed actual health benefits to red wine) I wondered if it were about time I switched from phenylaniline dissolved in brown carbonic acid to a respectable red wine instead. I don't like the wines he gets (too dry or something) so one of the things I got last week was a sweet Australian moscato. Again I agree with A.West's sentiment - while it was drinkable, I'd still rather have a pepsi max. Dad thinks he's "corrupted" me - feh, not a chance.

JJM

[D'kian]

Oddly, I think beer smells orright - drinking it is another matter. I'm not a fan, never have been, never will be. Some Aussie, huh?

Some beers smell all right. I often drive past the Modelo brewery (maker of Corona), and I love the smell that comes out of it (fermenting malt, probably).

I've never respected this 'acquired taste' idea. WTF is the point of trying to force yourself to like something, especially when that something is objectively inferior to what you do like??

Well, you prefer Pepsi over Coke, so who cares what you think anyway?

Many tastes are acquired. As to why you'd want to acquire any, there are a number of reasons. One is to broaden your choices, another because something you don't like might be good for you (I've found I can take grilled broccoli with soy sauce, but still hate it any other way), or because the thing you don't like, such as alcohol, produces a side effect you enjoy.

[Capitalism Forever]

I always sort of suspected that there were people who preferred Pepsi over Coke (after all, Pepsi has managed to be profitable somehow) ... but I never would have thought I would meet one on an Objectivist Forum!

[FeatherFall]

The trouble is that here in the UK we have a terrible culture of binge drinking and if you can't 'down' a pint of beer you're a 'poof' (fag). It's pretty hard for someone without a firm foundation of self-esteem to resist this kind of peer pressure.

I come from a "drinking town with a football (American football) problem", and I've met a lot of poofs who can down a pint just fine.

Well, then, what about the mood altering effect of sitting down? Or of taking off your shoes after a long day of standing on your feet? Is that ok? How many people do you know who grow grouchy towards lunchtime, yet are perfectly even tempered once they've eaten?

Mood changes throughout the day for various reasons, most having little or nothing to do with drugs.

The emotional change when you engage in an activity is an indicator of things as they are happening – this faculty is interfered with when a drug is ingested. It takes some serious focus to use a hard drug and remain cognizant of the fact that the drug is making you feel that way. You have to be aware of this and prepared for it. Some people can’t so they get violent, randy or scared.

The issue here is that drugs make it difficult to remain honest to yourself. I'm not saying it is impossible, and I am still undecided as to whether or not taking drugs is wrong in every case. Is it wrong if you remain in focus despite your newfound mental shortcomings?

[Capitalism Forever]

Many tastes are acquired. As to why you'd want to acquire any, there are a number of reasons. One is to broaden your choices, another because something you don't like might be good for you (I've found I can take grilled broccoli with soy sauce, but still hate it any other way), or because the thing you don't like, such as alcohol, produces a side effect you enjoy.

I think the essential thing to tell someone who disputes the idea of acquired tastes is: Acquiring a taste is discovering a value. Why would you ever want to discover a value? Because values are what keep you living!

Some values are immediately apparent to any baby, such as the value of food as such. But would a baby be aware of the value of a gourmet meal prepared by New York's best cook over ... well, milk? Or, would a baby be able to enjoy Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 as much as an educated Objectivist does? Would a baby be able to appreciate the plot of an Ayn Rand novel? These are all things you grow to value by learning about the world, about the nature of things, about what is bad for your life and what is good. Your emotional reactions to various foods and drinks, to music and other works of art, and so on, are a consequence of the value-judgments you have made, and the value-judgments you make depend on your knowledge about the world. The more you know, the more well-informed the value-judgments you make--and the broader the range of your taste.

[John McVey]

Some beers smell all right. I often drive past the Modelo brewery (maker of Corona), and I love the smell that comes out of it (fermenting malt, probably).

A friend gave me a Corona once. I couldn't smell much off it, but, YE GODS!, it tasted like how nitrous oxide smells. I'd rather quaff cyclohexane from my lab than try another of those - one can only blame so much on shipping.

Well, you prefer Pepsi over Coke, so who cares what you think anyway?

I always sort of suspected that there were people who preferred Pepsi over Coke (after all, Pepsi has managed to be profitable somehow) ... but I never would have thought I would meet one on an Objectivist Forum!

Uh oh... Coka coka jihad?

Bloody phosphoric acid junkies.

JJM

[4reason]

It is an acquired taste. If you want to acquire it you ought to start with sweet wines, like communion wine, and work your way to dryer ones. There are books for novice wine drinkers (I've never read any of them, but some people I know swear by them). Or you may try a wine club.

I had to laugh. The first wine I tasted was communion wine; I was raised a Catholic before I "deviated" as my grandmothers put it. I remember hating it even then. I always chose to eat just the waffers; the line for the wine was always longer anyway...

[aleph_0]

Boy, can I relate to that! *hides mint chocolate chip ice cream cone*

If only I were addicted to going to the gym!

I sometimes drink, and when I tend to drink more than the average bear, but I never drink to the point of losing control. I think I just have a higher tolerance than most, and when I get drunk my personality and behavior hardly change at all. I just tend to speak more freely, I suppose. I just enjoy the relaxation.

As for addiction to the gym, exercise actually produces a feeling like drug stimulation. Moreover, so does solving problems and learning. So I used to listen to my iPod and go jogging, and I would feel absolutely invigorated. On top of motivating me to exercise and learn more, aerobic and cardiovascular exercise help your body bring blood and oxygen to your brain, which heightens your awareness and ability to problem-solve. The only thing that keeps me from doing it more is work, the million things I have to do in a day, and loss of iPod, resulting in sadness.

But point being, I found a good exercise and studying program extremely effective--especially for studying foreign language, which requires a lot of repetition that can be stored on portable flash-cards and voice-recordings for an iPod. Also, I've never found one, but a running-and-language-study partner would be phenomenal. And when weightlifting, you can take breaks in-between sets to read a book. When I can keep up my program, I feel like my days are amazingly productive.

[athena glaukopis]

I sometimes drink, and when I tend to drink more than the average bear, but I never drink to the point of losing control. I think I just have a higher tolerance than most, and when I get drunk my personality and behavior hardly change at all. I just tend to speak more freely, I suppose. I just enjoy the relaxation.

As for addiction to the gym, exercise actually produces a feeling like drug stimulation. Moreover, so does solving problems and learning. So I used to listen to my iPod and go jogging, and I would feel absolutely invigorated. On top of motivating me to exercise and learn more, aerobic and cardiovascular exercise help your body bring blood and oxygen to your brain, which heightens your awareness and ability to problem-solve. The only thing that keeps me from doing it more is work, the million things I have to do in a day, and loss of iPod, resulting in sadness.

But point being, I found a good exercise and studying program extremely effective--especially for studying foreign language, which requires a lot of repetition that can be stored on portable flash-cards and voice-recordings for an iPod. Also, I've never found one, but a running-and-language-study partner would be phenomenal. And when weightlifting, you can take breaks in-between sets to read a book. When I can keep up my program, I feel like my days are amazingly productive.

yes, i go to the gym 5-6 days a week, but do not run because my arches are too high... which causes knee pain and back pain when running for too long.

[Capitalism Forever]

ability to problem-solve

I'm amazed by some people's ability to verb-coin!

[aleph_0]

I would have thought the mostly-dashes noun, "running-and-language-study partner" would inspire more awe.

All the same, I'm pretty sure I've seen psychological studies talk about "problem-solving", so I'm not sure I can take credit for coining it.

[~Sophia~]

I am a sweet-tooth. Not only have I always been, but I've become even moreso and so at my age (35) I now imagine that I will probably remain a sweet-tooth for life. I've never respected this 'acquired taste' idea. WTF is the point of trying to force yourself to like something, especially when that something is objectively inferior to what you do like??

I would like to dispute the 'objectively inferior'

Try soft cheese (double cream Brie, Camembert, Boursault, Chaource) on a toasted raisin bread canape with half a red, seedless, grape and half of a California walnut on each. Every bite should contain a bit of each.

That should take care of your sweet-tooth

Now try it with a glass of Pinot Grigio (or any light white wine). Then try it with a glass of pepsi. You will clearly see why people choose to have wine.

Edited January 6, 2008 by ~Sophia~

[Capitalism Forever]

All the same, I'm pretty sure I've seen psychological studies talk about "problem-solving", so I'm not sure I can take credit for coining it.

Yeah, but that's a compound made of two nouns, "problem" and "solving." The verb "to problem-solve" would be a so-called back formation from that. Like when you take the commonly used phrase "value-judgment" and convert it into a new verb: "to value-judge." There is nothing wrong with back formations as such, but when they are based on hyphenated phrases, the result will be a hyphenated verb, which I find rather awkward.

But that's a matter of taste, of course.