Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Please help me answer this "offer of help"

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Last night, I got an email from my brother's mother-in-law. After some small talk about family, she says this, "Anyway, heard you are having some questions about faith and religion, etc. Doug [her husband] writes a devotional almost weekly. Here is the one he recently wrote. If you would like, we can add you to the distribution list. He really searches the scriptures as he writes these. He has about 100 of them in a file. If you have any questions, please write him. He is very knowledgeable and loves the Lord. I know he would be happy to answer any questions he can, or send you any devotionals he has written on any subject. Just let us know."

Basically, I should have never mentioned to my mother that I'm an atheist. (It was a "must lie" situation and I made an error in judgment.) Now all of her friends and family keep telling her that I'm just confused, it's just a phase and I simply have questions. No, no and no. Now I don't want to be rude to these people, but how can I tell them I'm not confused, I don't have questions and I do not seek the help they're offering without offending them? Any suggestions?

I guess I'm having a problem responding because I find it offensive that they assume I'm confused and need their help. I'm also offended that they want others to accept their beliefs and philosophy, but they are not so courteous as to accept mine. No matter how many times I've prepared a response, it just sounds insulting to me. I certainly do not want to be insulting because I know these people are doing what they believe is right and are doing it with love in their hearts.

ARGHHHHH! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kel,

My particular take is that if it is only one time, then I would let it slide. Most people are not so rabid in their faith that they push more than once. However, if someone is persistant, then you should address it.

An approach I learned from negotiating class is to put yourself in their shoes, and understand their good intentions, and then acknowledge those facts explicitly before you address your situation. Be clear that you don't have any internal conflicts and are at peace with your decision, and that while you appreciate their thinking of you that you do not need or want their advice.

Onen other thing I've learned too and htis is purely semantics, but I'm amazed at the number of times it has helped. Don't use the words "but" or "however". These are cue words that cause someone to immediatley expect the negative after. You may think you are being clear, but you're actually emotionally cueing feelings of rejection. Almost always it can be said with an "and".

Dear X,

Thanks for the offer of advice. I know that you provide this because you value me (and my mother) and I wanted to let you know that I am at peace with my decisions, etc. etc...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I'm having a problem responding because I find it offensive that they assume I'm confused and need their help. I'm also offended that they want others to accept their beliefs and philosophy, but they are not so courteous as to accept mine.

This is what you have to let go of if you really want to respond politely. That is the offense you take at the presumption. It is common for people who don't know you well, but who know you enough to want to "help" to presume to know more than they do. It will always be that way, no sense wasting emotion on it. Good friends try to understand you first, and then help. These kind of people will never be that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You could try to reverse it by writing a brief summary of Objectivism and why religion strictly opposes reality, and include that this is not a whimsical decision, but something about which you are fully certain.

If my family or friends ever pulled crap like that, you can be damn sure they'll never do it again...and hopefully some will doubt their own faith. It would be war (a friendly, family kind of war, but war, nonetheless). There'd be a lot of fun debates in the coming years.

Edited by Chops
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You could try to reverse it by writing a brief summary of Objectivism and why religion strictly opposes reality

I would not.

To add to the great advice that you already received from Kendall...

Most people grab/hang on to religion because that is the only, known to them, source of moral code (and they rightly feel that they/we need one). So I think your family will be more accepting of your views if they understood that you will continue to lead a moral life (even more so than you have in the past - although don't say that).

Avoid any contrasting between religion and Objectivism but rather talk about yourself, of what kind of person is your ideal (in a moral sense) and your positive outlook on life and your future.

Win them over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I don't want to be rude to these people, but how can I tell them I'm not confused, I don't have questions and I do not seek the help they're offering without offending them? Any suggestions?

Just be polite but firm, and tell them you don't have questions, you're not confused and you're not interested in whatever it is they're offering you. If they are offended by a polite refusal, then they only show they lack manners. That would be their problem, not yours.

I had an issue like this with a cousin of mine. He was very offended that I didn't want to listen to his prozelytism (if that terms applies to Judaism anyway), to the point he stopped talking to me altogether for years. To be honest such things don't affect me much (I'm a loner by choice). But the point is I was polite in my refusals, so he had no rational basis to be angry or offended. Whatever he did as a result was irrational and not my problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your help. Here is the draft I've saved...tell me what you think...

"I appreciate your offer to be on Doug's mailing list and I know that you offer it with good intentions. I am very much at peace and do not have any questions or doubts regarding my decision. In fact, I feel more at peace with my passion for and sense of life than ever before. I am truly happy and feel very grounded in reality. I continue to study Objectivism, and have found it to be the most rational, common sense philosophy for living that I've ever known. It has certainly made me a better person in every way and everyone who knows me can see the tremendous changes in my life for the better over the past 9 months. I know it's difficult for mom to understand and she somehow blames herself for "failing" me, but I certainly do not look at it like that. She should be very proud that she has raised a beautiful, smart and rational woman who is completely happy and knows exactly what she wants out of life."

And by way of a little background, I do know this woman and her extended family well. I am very close to my sister-in-law and our families frequently merge for events such as Birthdays and holidays. They are people that I value and that is why I want to choose my words carefully.

Edited by K-Mac
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I appreciate your offer to be on Doug's mailing list and I know that you offer it with good intentions. I am very much at peace and do not have any questions or doubts regarding my decision. In fact, I feel more at peace with my passion for and sense of life than ever before. I am truly happy and feel very grounded in reality. I continue to study Objectivism, and have found it to be the most rational, common sense philosophy for living that I've ever known. It has certainly made me a better person in every way and everyone who knows me can see the tremendous changes in my life for the better over the past 9 months. I know it's difficult for mom to understand and she somehow blames herself for "failing" me, but I certainly do not look at it like that. She should be very proud that she has raised a beautiful, smart and rational woman who is completely happy and knows exactly what she wants out of life."

I think that's perfect. To Sophia's excellent point, this response flies directly in the face of their dichotomy that atheism is "lost" as far as morality is concerned. How can you argue with someone who is a *better* person now that they have dropped Christianity. It checks their response, and most politely at that.

And by way of a little background, I do know this woman and her extended family well. I am very close to my sister-in-law and our families frequently merge for events such as Birthdays and holidays. They are people that I value and that is why I want to choose my words carefully.

This is the key. IF you value these people for some reason, THEN tact and politeness and winning them over is warranted. IF you don't, THEN it's all irrelevant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If my family or friends ever pulled crap like that, you can be damn sure they'll never do it again...and hopefully some will doubt their own faith. It would be war (a friendly, family kind of war, but war, nonetheless). There'd be a lot of fun debates in the coming years.

I never describe debates of that nature as being "fun", but more like what you had said, war, in the ideological sense of it. I only engaged in one such war, that was brought on, when I took very firm, uncompromising, unwavering, protective stands for a very young person who needed someone who was able to do that for her, because she was too young to be able to do so for herself at the time: my daughter. When I was crossed by her mother in the decisions we had made before we even tried to have a child, all hell broke loose. I had three generations of her family, and three generations of her pseudo-family ganging up on me for the stands I was still taking, which was once a shared stand, until someone started compromising, mainly because of a bleeding heart, and was not very firm in her stance to begin with (says hindsight). It was not fun, they brought in a Reverend to combat the things I was saying, and they believed him as dogmatically as they did the religion he preached to them. They thought Ayn Rand was a communist, and I was too, among other such tripe they spouted off to me. I have suffered many wounds from that war, and I hope that my daughter someday will know that I was and am her true ally and her real father...and right now, I am trying to make a paper trail, with my own words, that will hopefully lead and connect the two of us together again...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never describe debates of that nature as being "fun", but more like what you had said, war, in the ideological sense of it.

It really depends on the family. While the vast majority of my family is Christian, with a few creationist fundies sprinkled here and there. If whoever in my family is unwilling to "accept" me because of my atheist stance, then I frankly have no value to derive from them and would therefore feel no regret in alienating them.

That said, as far as I can tell, my family recognizes that I am atheistic and very happy.

Obviously everyone has to gauge their family to determine what the proper course of action is, and I think Kelly's letter is tasteful, to the point, and seems effective. I tend to be a little more "combative" and looking for a debate*, or at least wish to divulge Objectivist metaphysics and epistemology when the god discussion rears its head.

In your case, your family (or rather, your Ex's family) was much less accepting (and rationally bankrupt), and the casualty was your relationship with your daughter. I don't know what I'd do in that scenario, but it's not an easy situation no matter how you deal with it.

Well, I sent it, so we'll see how it goes.

Good luck! Hope it goes well!

Edit: *Not to say I'm belligerent, only that I try to deliver in the vein of Roark at the end of TF.

Edited by Chops
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Edit: *Not to say I'm belligerent, only that I try to deliver in the vein of Roark at the end of TF.

I feel your passion. When people do this to me, I so badly want to explain it all to them and show them the error of their ways and the flaws in their thinking. Unfortunately, it's just too much for me and I am still a student of Objectivism, so I would quickly find myself in over my head. For whatever it's worth, I left a copy of Craig Biddle's Loving Life with my mother at Christmas. Someone in an Objectivist group I meet with recommended it and thought it may help my mother understand a little bit about what I'm studying. We'll see... :wub:

Edited by K-Mac
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I try to be rather matter-of-fact about it. I am an atheist, I love my family for the people that they are, but I don't accept Christianity. When and if someone trise to sermonize me, I just try to drop the issue by saying something along the lines of, "I know what you believe, I just don't accept it." I don't offer arguments unless the person seems intelligent and rational enough to hear them. I just say, "I don't accept what you believe, and I don't like to argue about it, so let's talk about something else." It tends to be fairly effective, especially since I refuse to lie in anything but emergency situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I haven't heard anything else from my brother's mother-in-law and I spoke w/ my mom today who is feeling "much better" about it all. She's about a quarter of the way through Biddle's book, so I was pleased to hear that. I think the fire has been put out. Now I just need to keep an eye out for any smoking embers. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never describe debates of that nature as being "fun", but more like what you had said, war, in the ideological sense of it. I only engaged in one such war, that was brought on, when I took very firm, uncompromising, unwavering, protective stands for a very young person who needed someone who was able to do that for her, because she was too young to be able to do so for herself at the time: my daughter. When I was crossed by her mother in the decisions we had made before we even tried to have a child, all hell broke loose. I had three generations of her family, and three generations of her pseudo-family ganging up on me for the stands I was still taking, which was once a shared stand, until someone started compromising, mainly because of a bleeding heart, and was not very firm in her stance to begin with (says hindsight). It was not fun, they brought in a Reverend to combat the things I was saying, and they believed him as dogmatically as they did the religion he preached to them. They thought Ayn Rand was a communist, and I was too, among other such tripe they spouted off to me. I have suffered many wounds from that war, and I hope that my daughter someday will know that I was and am her true ally and her real father...and right now, I am trying to make a paper trail, with my own words, that will hopefully lead and connect the two of us together again...

That is horrible. And people that tell us we are wrong think that they know what the word 'evil' really means. I am sure that your wish will be fulfilled, because you are the kind of person who will make it happen, without the help of their crutch of a God

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...