Surviving in an irrational world

[LovesLife]

For pretty much my whole life, I've known that something is wrong with the world. I only recently discovered Ayn Rand and objectivism, which has finally provided a wonderful framework in which I can describe and discuss what I've known for so long.

However, I now finding myself facing a crisis. As a rational person, I find that nearly everyone around me is not. How is it possible for a rational person to survive and stay sane in an irrational world?

[DavidOdden]

As a rational person, I find that nearly everyone around me is not. How is it possible for a rational person to survive and stay sane in an irrational world?

Primarily by not destroying yourself because others are idiots. The only reasonable struggle would be the one between you and the animals, who have the appearance of men, and then the question should be "How can I best identify men as distinct from animals who look like men; how can I stop the life-threatening onslaughts of the manimals?" It's not trivial, of course. But I assume you're not seriously plagued by the puzzle of how to deal with gale-force winds -- you just deal. Remember, insanity is not contagious.

[LovesLife]

The only reasonable struggle would be the one between you and the animals, who have the appearance of men, and then the question should be "How can I best identify men as distinct from animals who look like men; how can I stop the life-threatening onslaughts of the manimals?" It's not trivial, of course.

Exactly: it's not trivial. I am able to very reliably identify the manimals now. It's stopping the life-threatening onslaught that's the challenge. What if everyone in your immediate and extended family was a manimal who sacrifices reason to emotion? I'm looking for ideas on how to logically and morally reason a solution to a problem where on the surface, all options seem to point to pain and suffering for everyone involved.

Edited February 10, 2008 by AceNZ

[Inspector]

Exactly: it's not trivial. I am able to very reliably identify the manimals now. It's stopping the life-threatening onslaught that's the challenge. What if everyone in your immediate and extended family was a manimal who sacrifices reason to emotion? I'm looking for ideas on how to logically and morally reason a solution to a problem where on the surface, all options seem to point to pain and suffering for everyone involved.

When confronted with a mad dog, I hear that it is sound advice to back away slowly, without making any sudden moves. I think that as metaphors go, that applies fairly well here. Begin removing yourself slowly from involvement with them, being careful not to get into some kind of big fight.

[DavidOdden]

What if everyone in your immediate and extended family was a manimal who sacrifices reason to emotion?

Well, Inspector's advice is correct, but it's also important to distinguish between mad dogs and bad dogs, not to mention untrained dogs. Are you trying to train these dogs? Or avoid getting destroyed by them? Those radically different goals imply quite different ways of dealing with them. If you're trying to train them, or in some way salvage them, that means you think there's something that's actually worth saving -- so what is it? No doubt the whole matter is very complex, but as a starter, I'd simply try to make clear to myself, what am I trying to do, and how does that enhance my life? Is that a reasonable goal? It's not so hard to housebreak a dog, but rather than wasting the time trying to reform a really vicious dog, I'd just give it to the pound.

Seriously, one thing I've learned is that problematic dogs can often be reformed by simply not allowing them to run your life, and by ignoring them.

[LovesLife]

When confronted with a mad dog, I hear that it is sound advice to back away slowly, without making any sudden moves. I think that as metaphors go, that applies fairly well here. Begin removing yourself slowly from involvement with them, being careful not to get into some kind of big fight.

Let's say (as an example; not my situation) that you wake up one day and realize that your spouse is extremely religious, and makes all of their day-to-day living decisions based on religion. Discussions about why they live that way always come down to the mystic: feelings, faith, etc. You care for your spouse, you have kids together who believe as they do, and you care for them as well. They judge you based not on your actions, but on how you make them feel, according to some irrational set of rules. Removing yourself slowly from involvement with them only gets you so far.

Well, Inspector's advice is correct, but it's also important to distinguish between mad dogs and bad dogs, not to mention untrained dogs. Are you trying to train these dogs? Or avoid getting destroyed by them? Those radically different goals imply quite different ways of dealing with them. If you're trying to train them, or in some way salvage them, that means you think there's something that's actually worth saving -- so what is it? No doubt the whole matter is very complex, but as a starter, I'd simply try to make clear to myself, what am I trying to do, and how does that enhance my life? Is that a reasonable goal? It's not so hard to housebreak a dog, but rather than wasting the time trying to reform a really vicious dog, I'd just give it to the pound.

Seriously, one thing I've learned is that problematic dogs can often be reformed by simply not allowing them to run your life, and by ignoring them.

In my case, it's bad dogs who can't be trained. They're not vicious, just on the wrong path -- but they very strongly believe they're on the right one. Also, I'm afraid I'm not a very good trainer. What I'm trying to do is simple: to live a happy, full and satisfying life.

I've tried the "ignore them" approach. The result is that I'm often miserable; it's clearly self-destructive in some way. Ignore, confront, train or leave -- are those the only options? Leaving is sometimes tempting, but I'm not convinced that it will solve anything. It seems just as likely that it would make things worse.

Edited February 10, 2008 by AceNZ

[Inspector]

Removing yourself slowly from involvement with them only gets you so far.

In your hypothetical example, I'd say that while difficult, it is really the only answer. I mean, for the kids you would have to maintain some distant form of diplomatic relations, but that is it.

In my case, it's bad dogs who can't be trained. They're not vicious, just on the wrong path -- but they very strongly believe they're on the right one. Also, I'm afraid I'm not a very good trainer. What I'm trying to do is simple: to live a happy, full and satisfying life.

I've tried the "ignore them" approach. The result is that I'm often miserable; it's clearly self-destructive in some way. Ignore, confront, train or leave -- are those the only options? Leaving is sometimes tempting, but I'm not convinced that it will solve anything. It seems just as likely that it would make things worse.

You can't fully ignore them - basically what you have to do is establish your boundaries - that you will be doing your own thing and they will be doing their own thing. That you don't agree with them, but are content to let them live their lives how they please so long as they afford you the same comfort. That despite your disagreement, you bear them no ill will and simply want to live and let live. To become a sort of distant but cordial roommate.

(It's important in doing so to be the complete paragon of a roommate - polite and non-imposing in all things. And to be as self-reliant as possible to avoid becoming entangled with any disagreements. Avoid asking any favors so you can avoid being in a position to be asked them - because bad dogs will impose on you badly if given the chance.)

Ultimately, you'll want to leave - but in the meantime, the above is probably the best you can hope for. If they are nosy and pushy and won't let you establish that kind of relationship, then I am afraid that leaving sooner rather than later might be necessary.

[LovesLife]

You can't fully ignore them - basically what you have to do is establish your boundaries - that you will be doing your own thing and they will be doing their own thing. That you don't agree with them, but are content to let them live their lives how they please so long as they afford you the same comfort. That despite your disagreement, you bear them no ill will and simply want to live and let live. To become a sort of distant but cordial roommate.

Very good advice; thanks for that.

With the rest of world largely populated by manimals, does it ever feel lonely? I'm generally pretty happy working by myself and for my own benefit, but that only seems to work up to a point.

[yentel]

For pretty much my whole life, I've known that something is wrong with the world. I only recently discovered Ayn Rand and objectivism, which has finally provided a wonderful framework in which I can describe and discuss what I've known for so long.

However, I now finding myself facing a crisis. As a rational person, I find that nearly everyone around me is not. How is it possible for a rational person to survive and stay sane in an irrational world?

The world is not totally irrational, we don't live in the world of Atlas Shrugged. Most of the people out there are to some extent irrational but deal rationally in their day to day affairs. Reciprocate this. Educate and discuss ideas with those you can, and simply avoid those whose irrationality is truly a threat to you - I think you'll find their number surprisingly low.

[Mammon]

However, I now finding myself facing a crisis. As a rational person, I find that nearly everyone around me is not. How is it possible for a rational person to survive and stay sane in an irrational world?

Do drugs.

[LovesLife]

Most of the people out there are to some extent irrational but deal rationally in their day to day affairs. Reciprocate this. Educate and discuss ideas with those you can, and simply avoid those whose irrationality is truly a threat to you - I think you'll find their number surprisingly low.

It's not so much the day-to-day affairs that are an issue for me; superficial relationships aren't a problem. Instead, the irrationality shows up during in-depth interactions. Have you ever spent much time asking people why they do certain things? It's a scary experience.

However, you bring up a good point: avoiding only those who are a threat is a sound strategy.

Do drugs.

If only it was so easy!

[yentel]

It's not so much the day-to-day affairs that are an issue for me; superficial relationships aren't a problem. Instead, the irrationality shows up during in-depth interactions. Have you ever spent much time asking people why they do certain things? It's a scary experience.

However, you bring up a good point: avoiding only those who are a threat is a sound strategy.

AceNZ, I'm looking through your posts in this thread and you seem to be coming from a context, real or perceived, different than the one I operate in. You're taking what I see as a really polar approach accepting Rand's dichotomies of Reason/Mysticism and Egoism/Altruism not as a spectrum of positions but a spectrum of the population's psychology; that in your life people can largely say to be on one pole or the other. Is that the case?

My own experience has been that even the most religious of persons will fall in some middle zone and, in their major life decisions like marriage, death etc, are still dealing with the same basic problems, in the same basic ways as the rest of us. Very, very few Christians smile in a funeral.

Because of my own experience this talk of disowning others for irrationality boggles my mind.

Where is it you're coming from?

Edited February 10, 2008 by yentel

[Inspector]

With the rest of world largely populated by manimals, does it ever feel lonely? I'm generally pretty happy working by myself and for my own benefit, but that only seems to work up to a point.

It's normal to feel that way - but it only takes one good friend (or spouse!) to alleviate that. Hopefully you will be able to find that at least, if not more. Once you have that, the rest could all be foaming mad for all you'll care - so long as they stay on their side.

[Inspector]

It's not so much the day-to-day affairs that are an issue for me; superficial relationships aren't a problem. Instead, the irrationality shows up during in-depth interactions. Have you ever spent much time asking people why they do certain things? It's a scary experience.

However, you bring up a good point: avoiding only those who are a threat is a sound strategy.

My own experience matches that description pretty well - the consonance is that relations with others that are kept on that superficial, functional, level tend to... well, function. So it works out and you can get by well enough without having to concern yourself with most people. (i.e. because most of them are non-threatening so long as they are kept at that distance)

[Inspector]

Because of my own experience this talk of disowning others for irrationality boggles my mind.

Where is it you're coming from?

I don't believe he said he was interested in disowning them. Actually, I think he was getting at the fact that it would be less than ideal to do so, and was wondering what the alternative was. At least that's how I read him.

Anyhow, my response was based on the assumption that he was correct in his judgment that these people couldn't be convinced (at least by him) to change their ways. With the "at least by him" part in there, I don't think this is all that uncommon or implausible. If anything I'd say that your context is the rarer.

[LovesLife]

AceNZ, I'm looking through your posts in this thread and you seem to be coming from a context, real or perceived, different than the one I operate in. You're taking what I see as a really polar approach accepting Rand's dichotomies of Reason/Mysticism and Egoism/Altruism not as a spectrum of positions but a spectrum of the population's psychology; that in your life people can largely say to be on one pole or the other. Is that the case?

No, that's not the case. I understand that people operate on a spectrum of positions. The issue for me is that in-depth interactions with people who are more mystic and less reasoned tend to sap the life out of me. It's an exhausting and unpleasant way to live -- for me at least.

My own experience has been that even the most religious of persons will fall in some middle zone and, in their major life decisions like marriage, death etc, are still dealing with the same basic problems, in the same basic ways as the rest of us. Very, very few Christians smile in a funeral.

Most of life doesn't consist of major decision like marriage, etc. It's the day-to-day stuff that's a challenge for me.

Because of my own experience this talk of disowning others for irrationality boggles my mind.

Where is it you're coming from?

I didn't mean to suggest that I want to disown anyone. I'm trying to find a way to survive. I care about the people who are close to me, but I'm allowing them to damage me. I need to find a way to fix that.

I don't believe he said he was interested in disowning them. Actually, I think he was getting at the fact that it would be less than ideal to do so, and was wondering what the alternative was. At least that's how I read him.

Yes, exactly right.

[DragonMaci]

For pretty much my whole life, I've known that something is wrong with the world. I only recently discovered Ayn Rand and objectivism, which has finally provided a wonderful framework in which I can describe and discuss what I've known for so long.

However, I now finding myself facing a crisis. As a rational person, I find that nearly everyone around me is not. How is it possible for a rational person to survive and stay sane in an irrational world?

One thing that helps is to find others like you. I know of one highly rational person in NZ. He lives just 30 minutes drive from me (and is my couson). I have also met a person online that seems rational and very intelligent that is less than 2 hours from me. It helps a lot.

[LovesLife]

One thing that helps is to find others like you. I know of one highly rational person in NZ. He lives just 30 minutes drive from me (and is my couson). I have also met a person online that seems rational and very intelligent that is less than 2 hours from me. It helps a lot.

Yes, that would definitely help. I moved to NZ about a year ago from the States, and live in Nelson. I haven't had any luck finding others like me in the area yet, although I'm definitely working on it.