Pony Cars

[synchro]

Will the pony car ever return as the sort of vehicle that sells in the tens of thousands, or will it be resigned to a niche product?

Car enthusiasts seem happy with the look of the new Mustang, but I have heard that average car buyers surveyed don't like it.

So what's the verdict, is this concept doomed? BTW this topic refers to pony cars in general, not just the Mustang.

Traditional pony cars

http://www3.sympatico.ca/f.bevil/My1970Swinger340.html

http://www.er3.com/firebird/

http://www.fast-autos.net/ford/fordboss302.html

[Scott_Connery]

I think they have been doomed by government regulation. An important element of the pony car equation (and any cheap sports car) is light weight. The government mandated safety equipment has dramatically increased the weight of cars. For example, the porsche 911 is now 1000 lbs heavier than it was 30 years ago (almost a 50% gain) In order to increase weight and still achieve good performance, radically more horsepower is required, along with much larger tires, and generally higher technology. This means that instead of being able to buy simple cheap 2000 lb. cars, we only have the option of super expensive 3500 lb cars, that really don't perform that much better.

One notable exception is the lotus elise, although it is 45k.

[scottkursk]

I have to agree with Scott on this one. Regulations don't implicitly ban these cars but they make them pretty much impossible to make as they were. The great advantage of cars like the roadrunner, swingers, mustangs, and camaros was that they were cheap to buy, weighed nothing (compared to other cars of the era), and were really simple to work on. It started in 73 with the catalytic converters and fat bumpers that cars started getting much fatter. It took many years for them to finally recover some semblance of power and fun. I think that's why most anything produced between 72 - 80 or so isn't collectable. They were some very un-romantic cars.

But cost and weight regulations killed the idea of the cheap sports or pony car. I drive a Volvo 940 Turbo and have no doubt I'll buy another Volvo when this one gets old. Still, I miss the feel of driving my 69 Datsun or 72 Monte Carlo I shoehorned a 501 from a Cadillac into. There is such a romance and sentimental attachment to those kind of cars.

I used to race sportscars. A 69 Datsun 2000 which was basically a lightweight rocket ship. Cars like MG, Triumph, and Porsches were popular in school becasue they could be had relatively cheap, and thanks to light weight and design they handled really well. But yes, they weren't the safest cars on the road. Of course, that's why I installed a rollbar. I valued the safety over the weight gain. But then it was my choice.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/scott_kur...3&.dnm=c70a.jpg

[Bearster]

I think another factor is that the culture has changed.

Think of it this way. Ownership and driving a sports car is a selfish, independent, masculine sort of pleasure.

Today's edukation kamps turn out kids who are trained to be the opposite. Many of them are utterly second-handed; they chase the *appearance* of performance and ignore the real thing. Rice Boy, anyone? Many prefer SUVs and other status symbols, for similar reasons.

Many others seek vehicles that can accodomate larger groups; social outings are their highest priority.

And an increasing number are deluded by environmentalism and buy cars based on notions of "protecting" the "environment."

I am waiting for the 2006 Corvette Z06. Reportedly, it will be 3100 lbs, with a 427 cubic inch motor making 500 lb-ft of torque and 500 hp.

[ZiggyKD]

Bearster, I disagree that kids have given up on the pony car segment because they view sports car ownership as a selfish pleasure. Real sports cars are still profitable, as is shown by the success of the Mustang, 350Z, and other performance cars like the WRX, Mitsubishi Evo and (to a degree) the S2000. From my experience, kids buy these cars because they derive a selfish pleasure from owning a car that can perform well, or they'll buy it to attract second-handed esteem, or both (this one is usually the case). My point is that the "selfish motive" is not a deterent in buying this kind of car these days, but still a favorable cause.

The ricers haven't killed the sports car segment, not yet anyway.

--~--

As far as the demise of the Firebird and Camaro, I agree with Scott, but I also blame a parent company that gave little attention to the car, as is shown by how few updates were made to the F-body it in its last generation. There were plenty of customer complaints about ride, interior quality, rear passenger room, etc. over its 9 year run to understand what customers in this market were looking for, and they failed to react. The car would still be alive if they only paid more attention to their customers, as is shown by the incredible success of the C5.

There are plenty rumors going around that GM might bring the Camaro back (in 2007 I believe), however, with a retro-themed design, unfortunately.

[Scott_Connery]

Performance cars are still around, but they are massive compared to what they should be. A sports car in my mind should weigh no more than about 2200 lbs. This makes them simple and cheap to perform well. A tiny light car can go fast with 150hp, and it can handle well on much smaller tires. All of this contributes to making them cheap. All of the cars you mentioned are 3200+ lb monstrocities that cost 30k+.

If a major factory got involved, something like this could be made for less than half the price:

Super 7

Cheap reliable 100-200 hp engine. Great gas mileage, Astounding performance, and something that just looks like a blast to drive. Did I mention they weigh about 1200 lbs? Low weight is the secret to performancein any area.

[scottkursk]

Something else occured to me re the cultural shift. True, people want safe cars. That's why alot of people (myself included) buy Volvo's. I seriously doubt that the vehicles like the stripped down vehicles like the Lotus 7 would gain mass appeal since there is a replacement. Motorcycles.

If people now want that wind in the hair and less safe than your suv experience, they go buy bikes. The feeling of freedom and speed that used to be gotten through stripped down pony and sports cars now go for motorcycles. Bikes are very socially acceptable ways of getting what you used to get from fun cars.

Plus if you look at the demographics of people that buy bikes are the same mid-life crisis suffereing men that used to buy fun cars.

It's 8 years and two owners later that those cars really become the pony cars that kids modify into raceable vehicles. Some exceptions of course like ZiggyKD points out.

[Bearster]

The F body performed far better, and had higher build quality than Mustang. F Body sales volume kept shrinking, and I don't think Mustgang volume increased proportionally (I think it's down a bit also). Also, Mustang sales are predominantly the V6 model (which is not a pony, much less sports car).

[ZiggyKD]

Monstrocities, overly-expensive whales -- call them what you will; they're success proves that a car of this curb weight is still profitable, meaning that a business case can be made for the return of the F-body. Further, Mustang sales prove that not only can this car be profitable, it doesn't need to be a niche car either (like the other cars I mentioned) -- it can actually sell quite well: 140,350 Mustang sales in 2003.

[ZiggyKD]

V6 Mustangs, though probably the most underpowered in the family of Mustangs, can still be modified to perform better, something the kids around my age (20) seem more than willing to do. The existence of aftermarket products makes this car more appealing to those who can't afford the 8 cylinder, again making the business case for this kind of car more feasible.