Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Does envy arise naturally from failure?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Rand summed up the meaning of 'envy' by saying it is the hatred of the good for being good. The only type of situation where envy arises with me is when I haven't accomplished a certain goal but I see another person accomplish that same goal so I feel envy towards him. Or when someone is better than me at something that I care about. However, I would never act to infringe on their rights because of these feelings; it just seems like a troublesome emotion.

I don't understand the causes of this emotion though. Is it because I'm unknowingly comparing other people's abilities to mine and using that as my standard of success? I say unknowingly because my main focus is always on what I can improve on, regardless as to what others are doing. Could it be because I understand you need a lot of fortunate things to go your way in order to accomplish a hardly attainable goal, and it causes me to dislike those people while I may not have gotten those fortunate things in my life?

I'm just wondering if anyone knows what causes envy and how to work on getting rid of the feeling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rand summed up the meaning of 'envy' by saying it is the hatred of the good for being good. The only type of situation where envy arises with me is when I haven't accomplished a certain goal but I see another person accomplish that same goal so I feel envy towards him. Or when someone is better than me at something that I care about. However, I would never act to infringe on their rights because of these feelings; it just seems like a troublesome emotion.

Check your premise.

Envy is the desire of something in a covetous nature - that is, to desire something wrongly - or to desire something with a will to take that thing via an unethical means.

When you see that someone else has attained a goal you have not succeeded, do you wish to cheat that person of his achievement? Do you feel the person is not entitled to his achievement?

As you yourself say you do not, then what you feel is not envy.

If the other person has achieved what you have not via an immoral method, then anger and resentment would be appropriate feelings, in response to having been cheated.

If, however, another person has something you lack, through achievement, and you wish you could accomplish the same thing, then perhaps what you are feeling is not really envy, but an intense mix of admiration and ambition?

ETA: I note that some definitions of "covet" include an eager wishing for something not in a necessarily immoral stance: IE: He won the trophy they had all coveted. I'm not sure I agree with that definition - not in the most widely used sense (as in the Judeo/Christian sense of Thou Shalt Not Covet (desire wrongly), which is good advice for Objectivists too, from a rational perspective)

Edited by Greebo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rand summed up the meaning of 'envy' by saying it is the hatred of the good for being good.

No she did not, go back and read what she actually said. I think she covers this the most thoroughly in "Through Your Most Grievous Fault", reprinted in The Voice of Reason.

Envy is a mild and innocent emotion compared with hating the good for being the good: it simply means that you wish you had something that someone else has. Like most other emotions, there's nothing wrong with it if you don't use it as an excuse to *act* in an immoral manner. Hatred of the good for being the good, however, is different. If you envy someone, you want to have what they have. If you are a hater, you *don't* want what they have, you want to see it *taken away* from *them*. You enjoy the spectacle of seeing a good, noble, kind, beautiful, successful, or intelligent person fail in some way.

Hatred of the good for being the good is a confession of a hatred for values as such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No she did not, go back and read what she actually said. I think she covers this the most thoroughly in "Through Your Most Grievous Fault", reprinted in The Voice of Reason.

Envy is a mild and innocent emotion compared with hating the good for being the good: it simply means that you wish you had something that someone else has. Like most other emotions, there's nothing wrong with it if you don't use it as an excuse to *act* in an immoral manner. Hatred of the good for being the good, however, is different. If you envy someone, you want to have what they have. If you are a hater, you *don't* want what they have, you want to see it *taken away* from *them*. You enjoy the spectacle of seeing a good, noble, kind, beautiful, successful, or intelligent person fail in some way.

Hatred of the good for being the good is a confession of a hatred for values as such.

Yup. Envy or jealousy that comes from a place of "I wish I had what s/he has" can actually be a good thing -- a motivator. Say you and a coworker are up for a promotion, and your coworker gets it. You are jealous and wish you had been the one who had been chosen, but then upon giving the situation more thought, you realize that your coworker has done great work on several projects recently and that your work hasn't been quite as good. So, because you want to advance just as your coworker did, you start working harder and eventually are given a promotion as well.

As mentioned above, the desire to see someone fail is evil -- and so is envy that takes the form of "I want that AND I don't want him/her to have it" (unless the envied person does not deserve what s/he has gotten. To use the promotion example again, if you realize that your coworker has been doing better work and you react by badmouthing her to your colleagues in the hopes that she'll be fired and you'll be promoted in her place, that's evil. When envy drives you to a rational action (working harder to get for yourself what the person you envy has), that is good; when envy drives you to an irrational action (trying to bring someone down unjustly), that is evil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But if someone feels envy towards people when they have accomplished something he wishes he had, then I would also think he would feel envy towards his romantic partner in the same circumstances. Like if his romantic partner becomes one of the best in her profession, while he is struggling to make even minor improvements at a much lower level in his profession. I could see envy working as a motivator here as well, but couldn't it create some strain on the relationship? I think it would prevent him from fully supporting his partner or making him feel unworthy as her partner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like if his romantic partner becomes one of the best in her profession, while he is struggling to make even minor improvements at a much lower level in his profession. I could see envy working as a motivator here as well, but couldn't it create some strain on the relationship? I think it would prevent him from fully supporting his partner or making him feel unworthy as her partner.

"When you find your heart is in conflict with your head, go with your head." (probably paraphrased, - John Galt, IIRC)

Unless the romantic partner is somehow obstructing the other in the profession in question, how is the romantic partner to blame for being better than the other in a profession they both pursue. For that matter, why bring profession into it?

My wife cooks. I cook. She is much better at cooking than I am. I don't resent her for it, I benefit from her cooking (my waist is proof of that).

I use computers. She uses computers. I am much better with computers than she is. She doesn't resent me for it, she benefits from my expertise (and my compulsion to upgrade gives her hand-me-downs she doesn't pay for).

Assuming you and your romantic partner share livelihoods, you both benefit from the success of the other, so the rational response to a partners success, be it the same profession or otherwise, is not envy, but joy in the talent (virtue) of the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

progressiveman1: Suppose I told you the following:

"you're smart, but your intelligence has a certain nature - and a certain limit. You may be good at a specific type of thinking, but you would not be able to come up with the theory of relativity. Not because you're bad, simply because you're not intelligent enough. "

Would you find it annoying (specifically the last part about not being intelligent enough)?

If so, it's possible that you use a wrong standard to judge yourself - basically not accepting your own abilities, with their limitations, as good enough. But instead looking at infinite abilities, with no limitations, as the standard of success or failure. Basically, lack of self-acceptance.

To expand on this theory:

When you fail at something you would blame the settings for it, or some temporary error of thinking, but never question your own limitations (because it would feel like sentencing yourself as a failure). This is why when you see someone succeed at that task, it shows you that it was not the settings - it was your own limitations, which you cannot emotionally accept, and this is why you would feel the negative emotion toward the one who succeeded where you failed - their success is registered in your mind as a proof of you being a failure.

The right standard to use when judging if you did a good job at something, is how much you succeeded compared to your own abilities. For example - I know I am not very good at solving problems that involve remembering many details at once. Some people are more intelligent than me in these kind of problems. I never get annoyed if someone solves them better than me - I am aware of my own limitations and I'm fine with that.

Unlimited abilities is not a realistic standard to judge yourself by. If your abilities are limited (and they are - everyone's abilities have their strengths and weaknesses) - it's OK. It doesn't make you a failure.

And just a side-note: It's very good that you ask yourself this question about your emotions, and are honest about it to yourself. A lot of people never choose this level of honesty with themselves, this is not an easy choice. So way to go!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

progressiveman1: Suppose I told you the following:

"you're smart, but your intelligence has a certain nature - and a certain limit. You may be good at a specific type of thinking, but you would not be able to come up with the theory of relativity. Not because you're bad, simply because you're not intelligent enough. "

Would you find it annoying (specifically the last part about not being intelligent enough)?

If so, it's possible that you use a wrong standard to judge yourself - basically not accepting your own abilities, with their limitations, as good enough. But instead looking at infinite abilities, with no limitations, as the standard of success or failure. Basically, lack of self-acceptance.

No, I wouldn't find it annoying actually. I've accepted what my potential abilities are, which is why I don't think this emotion arises from this. I think it has to do with fortunate advantages on things that are out of each person's control. Like if someone becomes really great at something mostly due to his parents getting him involved with it early on and getting great teachers, while I am here at the low end of the spectrum because I didn't have that fortunate advantage. Instead I have to start late and figure it all out on my own, but I know that I could be where the other person is at now if I had his advantages because I know I have great potential with it. That's when this feeling of anger or frustration arises, and I probably subconsciously want them to fail because of this.

And the typical advice for this, which makes sense is: just be concerned with your own progress and don't worry about the others. However, it doesn't seem to fix the problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I wouldn't find it annoying actually. I've accepted what my potential abilities are, which is why I don't think this emotion arises from this. I think it has to do with fortunate advantages on things that are out of each person's control. Like if someone becomes really great at something mostly due to his parents getting him involved with it early on and getting great teachers, while I am here at the low end of the spectrum because I didn't have that fortunate advantage.

How do you know they are more successful than you due to better teachers? Maybe they're just smarter than you.

Secondly, how is your *lack* of parents' support, education or whatever, a reason to be at the low end of the 'spectrum'?

If someone refuses to give you something - does this mean it is their fault that you fail at something?

Instead I have to start late and figure it all out on my own, but I know that I could be where the other person is at now if I had his advantages because I know I have great potential with it.

Btw, saw IronMan today. The hero, Tony Starks was born to a rich father, you provided him with the best education. Due to this, in combination with genius, he was able to invent magnificent things.

Since this character obviously had a far better start than you had, and achieved fabulous that you have not, would you feel envy/angry/whatever at him too?

That's when this feeling of anger or frustration arises, and I probably subconsciously want them to fail because of this.

Not a noble emotion, for sure, and certainly not justified.

And the typical advice for this, which makes sense is: just be concerned with your own progress and don't worry about the others. However, it doesn't seem to fix the problem.

You should focus on accepting the fact that other people can be better than you at stuff. Like smarter, more taented, etc'.

The rest would fall in place and most importantly you would feel better about yourself once you learn to accept who you are, and who you are in comparison to other people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find that envy is an emotion found in in a lot of people who believe in the following statement, "someones gain is my loss." The statment is wrong and holding it as true bring out a negative envious emotion.

Edited by avgleandt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

We cannot say that all those who face failures in life envy those who have made it big.If I did not get things i desire for,we all tend to get angry with those who get things done in a jiffy.The crux of the matter is that we will only get what we are supposed to get and if we strongly believe in this policy, then i am sure there is nothing called as a failure in life.

Imagine-Nation

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We cannot say that all those who face failures in life envy those who have made it big.If I did not get things i desire for,we all tend to get angry with those who get things done in a jiffy.

Speak for yourself! This is not a "human" emotion, it is your emotion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While Ifat's response is a bit curt, it is true in essence. I have experienced resentment toward people who demonstrate a greater degree of skill/speed/ability than I have, but I think this is a result of the fact that I grew up in an environment where I never got any positive recognition for anything unless my performance was *the best* or *perfect*. Now, as an adult, I know that it doesn't matter if I am *the* best as long as I do *my* best, and I can respect and even cheer for people whose abilities are greater than mine without feeling lessened in any way. In fact, I've reached the stage where I feel that the *fact* that I can respect someone else's greater ability is a *credit* to me and a source of pride.

That's not to say that I don't still occasionally feel resentment, but it always goes away very quickly when I remember the context.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You should focus on accepting the fact that other people can be better than you at stuff. Like smarter, more taented, etc'.

Ifat,

I assume you don't intend it this way, but your comments here make it seem to me that talent and intelligence are inborn, immutable traits. Is that what you mean or is it just that the causes of these traits are not relevant to you? Or is it that all that matters to you is whether or not someone possesses them and to what degree?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, as an adult, I know that it doesn't matter if I am *the* best as long as I do *my* best, and I can respect and even cheer for people whose abilities are greater than mine without feeling lessened in any way. In fact, I've reached the stage where I feel that the *fact* that I can respect someone else's greater ability is a *credit* to me and a source of pride.

Right. This is the way it should be.

That's not to say that I don't still occasionally feel resentment, but it always goes away very quickly when I remember the context.

When I first started studying in my school, I would get sometimes frustrated when someone outsmarted me. I had a friend who was practically a genius - this guy could learn things very quickly and apply to new fields. So anyway, when I looked into the reason why I was frustrated at times, I discovered I am expecting myself to succeed without limits. In some way I interpreted a failure, at a place when someone else succeeded as some basic failure of my own, as a thinker.

I discovered that once I learned my own abilities and their limits, and accepted that those are the limits, it all turned fine.

When I failed, and someone else succeeded - I no longer gave a damn. I remain focused on analyzing my performance in comparison to what I know my abilities to be.

Ifat,

I assume you don't intend it this way, but your comments here make it seem to me that talent and intelligence are inborn, immutable traits.

Some talents and part of intelligence are definitely inborn and immutable.

Is that what you mean or is it just that the causes of these traits are not relevant to you?

I'm not sure I understand your question, but I can answer the parts I do understand; The cause of these traits is not relevant to the necessity to recognize that you do have limits - what those limits are and the truth of where you stand in relation to others.

I've seen students here willing to go through every possible denial of why they did less well than someone else.

Everything - just not to admit that someone has higher abilities than them. And this is psychologically destructive.

So whether their limits are inborn, or a result of bad philosophy/insecurity there is still a need to recognize that those limits exist, and not to deny them.

Of course, in the context of one's own success (not in the context of what envy arises from) - it is very important to learn which part of one's abilities comes from one's immutable nature and which part from choice.

This allows you to identify which parts need an extra "push" to improve, and which parts to leave unchallenged.

For example - I have a pretty limited musical talent. I could work hard and maybe make something decent from myself, but it would not go beyond that. On the other hand, I have a drawing talent. And if I "push" in that field, and work to improve my skills, I know I can expect a great result that would satisfy me.

But this is a separate subject from envy.

Jennifer,

To continue my previous post...

If you want a more concrete way how to completely eliminate any feeling of envy or the like... here is what you need to do:

Start looking around you for people who are better than you in something. Focus on that (that they are better) and on the evidence that shows you that they are. At the same time also look inside at your own emotions, and remind yourself that it is OK that each has his own abilities and limits.

Do this regularly. After a while, all problems will be gone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really worry about it, Ifat, it's going away on its own as my emotions gradually line up with my convictions. I don't think there's anything *wrong* with being unhappy when I've been beaten at something, and I don't need to spend any more time dwelling on how much I suck at everything. Instead, I focus on what I *can* do and don't worry about anyone else. Even if someone else is a lot better than I am, that doesn't take away what I've done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I introspected when I had feelings of envy, and the feeling arose only when the other person could have an impact on my life. For example, baseball players who are better than me, and girls I admire who gain more appeal from others. It seems logical to then conclude that I feel envy when feelings of worthiness decline relating to a specific desire or goal I want to attain. A better baseball player means my chances of increasing to a higher level league declines; a girl I admire who increases her appeal to others decreases my chances of securing a relationship with her. This explains why I have been shamefully preferring and rooting for failure of others; because those outcomes would benefit my worthiness in relation to my goal.

Of course, I knew the right mental approach: to only be concerned about improving one’s own ability when trying to accomplish a goal, because I am the only person that I should try to control. I just don’t think I fully accepted this idea into my consciousness, and was left with a combination of trying to do my best and also hoping for other people’s failures. But elimination of the latter results in less undesirable pressure on oneself because you aren’t trying to do too much; you are just trying to live up to your own ability and not others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...