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Hi all, its good to be here. Its been 15 or so years since I found the fountainhead at the library, and became an athiest by the time I got to the part of the stoddard temple. Objectivism has always made sense to me, I think even before I knew about it. I was pretty sad during highschool, spending all my time alone in the library. It wasn't until I became a vegetarian that I began to feel better about myself, plus lost the excess 40 pounds. Not that being a vegey has anything to do about objectivism, but it was the first time I ever did something different, was warned against it, and it ended up working. Since then I have to learn everything myself.

Unfortunately everything about myself seems to rub the people the closest to me the wrong way. My father and me have no relationship and neither does me and my sister. Once I lost weight I looked better but still had a hard time with friends. My sister dropped out of school at 14 and moved in with a friend and her wellfare mom and did nothing but drink, drugs and well nothing good. My dad, eager to win his daughters love due to our parents devorce ,allowed all of it, and even hung out with his new "friends"

Meanwhile I went out west to run my mom's furniture business, and though the stress of a family business got to me due to the tempers of those involved, I felt I was learning. Eventually me and my sis got an apartment together. I had to understand what was going on and why I felt the need to belong. She had at least smartened up to the point where she was no longer one of the losers, but she still liked to be their ringleader and invited quite a few to come stay in our 2 bdrm apartment. I was the only one working, and it bothered me, everyone else being on welfare or mooching. I had started out wanting to learn to be friends with my sis's friends, but after awile I changed and kind of felt disgusted about the whole situation. That was when I first discovered that having alot of friends doesn't make you special if they are all losers. Almost to that day my sister and my father were against me. I thought about how I was in high school. My father didn't have a problem with me then, but cross my sisters friends and become more independant, and our relationship went downhill.

There was one time I came home from a long day at work and tried to sleep while everyone else partied. The group, including my dad, snuck into my room and put shaving cream up my nose while I slept. I never understood why I was so angry at that moment until I read Ayn Rand. Tell me is this not a perfect example of putting someone down just because I was trying to do something with my life. But of course I should be able to laugh at myself.

Forward to my present relationship. I have been with the same girl for 8 years. The first few years were great, and I couldn't have been prouder of us. Then about 18 months ago she started to get distant and I might have relaxed a bit myself. Objectivism was always very important to me and I would always talk with my girlfriend about it without any problem. Maybe after 4 years I got this feeling that I should look around to other writers, and be more, I guess cautious about what I would say. I read some libertarian stuff, and got into reading about Gold and got in that for investment early and tripled my money in my mutual fund. All the while I bought a house myself and paid it off in 6 years working long hours, of basic jobs, nothing special, like baking and driving a forklift. This isn't exactly an ideal career, but unfortunately, I never had much in the way of guidance (ie) my father. Previously after falling out with him over something that hurt me I took my inspiration from atlas, for right or wrong. Remember when Rearden told Francisco, "I don't know my limit, and I don't care", well that was all I knew about career. I just worked and thought I was doing well, and well, I am. Except that she doesn't really think so. Or at least not as well as I can. She is going for her accounting degree, and I support her efforts completely. She did have to deal with my thursday to monday 2-10 pm shift which did make it hard for us to see each other. I agreed to take a posting in the freezer to get Sun-Thurs, and I got Mon- Fri last Oct, so we now have the same days off although she works during the day. She first said she was lonely about 3 years ago. I told her I was doing the best I could for us, and not to feel that way. "Just because I am not there doesn't mean I don't love you, you are going to have to become more independant" I remember how my dad coddled my sister, I didn't want to be like that.

Her brother had been introduced to objectivism by me, but only read the novels and went more into investing and economics. He is a smart guy but, he is, well, one of those rothbard guys, he actually emailed me that rothbard play that denegrates Ayn Rand. I however, recovering from my bout of "tolerance" decided to get back to objectivism, and tried to bring it back into our relationship. For whatever reason, she wasn't interested, or rather couldn't get over that next step and so gave it up. As I entered the last 18 months, she was getting distant. Finally last March she said she didn't feel the same. I told her if that was the case, she had to leave. The next day I called her, we met, and got back together. Things were good for awile but we had things to still work out. She unfortunately didn't want too and or didn't know what to do. Finally, it was decided that we would break up, last weekend. We went right from we should fix this, to I don't want to. In other words, 8 years gone without even trying and I cannot find the central cause.

Some possibilities-she wasn't really independant enough at the start, so now that she is, she wants more. Which leaves the annoying feeling that I didn't attract the independant type and therefore wouldn't now.

-She thinks I havent accomplished enough, or have a "normal" career. Although she didn't have to deal with $740 coming off a biweekly paycheck every other week. I bought the house, She was welcome to contribute but I wanted us to each keep track of how much etc, so she decided not to. This difference in expenses changed my spending habits, sometimes I just don't like to spend money.

- I put off marriage- This was simply a question of whether it was essential. I had the frame of mind that I could never love her less because we were not married, so it was never an issue. Unfortunately, the way this went I kind of regret. We did actually agree to get married, 5 years ago, but then never got back to it. She maintains that the fact we didn't proceed with it was not an issue with her the whole time, but at the same time has said now that it is something she wants. I have a feeling I should not have believed it wasn't important to her and went ahead with it myself.

-I am too indecisive. sometimes this is true. I don't like to just call up someone to fix something and pay rediculous prices. I like to try to fix things myself, sometimes I put them off. Sometimes I don't always know what to do on our days off or what movie to rent

-She can't deal with the stress working this out will cause her, its easier not to try

- I am too serious. It is my opinion that seriousness is looked at as being overly sensitive nowadays.

I told her she is making a mistake and frankly the not try thing is insulting. A one year relationship, fine. I have some flaws you don't like, fine. But 8 years deserves more effort. I generally don't like to escape responsibilty, but if I do something you have a problem with, can't I ask for help on occasion without getting dumped.

Any advice?

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I can only say one thing. You, by yourself, cannot fix this. It is impossible. A relationship will die if both people are not willing to work on it. If your girlfriend does not freely choose to commit to making this better, there is no way around the fact that it must end. If the relationship is not worthwhile enough to her that she would fight for it that means she would not fight for you, and you can and should have a better woman than that.

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Sorry to hear about your situation. It's tough I know, I went through a similar situation last year with my long time girlfriend. We are back together and happy, but we had to confront some longstanding issues we avoided for a long time.

It sounds like you don't want to break up. So now would be a good time to take a look at what it is you like/love about her, what do you have as bonds between you. Is Objectivism a true passion, one that would require you to have a partner who is like-minded? Do you enjoy each other's company, can you make each other laugh?

I noticed that you didn't say why she broke up with you. What are the specific issues she is having? Lack of intimacy (not just sexual) is a common complaint among women. Is she not feeling valued? Are you more focused on finances than how she is feeling? Also, what has she been doing all this time to develop herself? I think some girls grow up creating their identity through their relationship with men, and never foster an independent self. Our culture has traditionally encouraged this.

I think a lot of people get comfortable in their relationships and stop developing them, which is a mistake. Your relationship in year 1 was different than in year 4, which is different in year 8. All good relationships have to continue to grow and flourish. This means constantly working at it, and making sure to take the time to do special things for her. I think 8 years of being together at least deserves a shot with a counselor. There may just be a communication barrier.

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I think you might need a girl's advice for this one...:D

1. Buy an engagement ring

2. Give it to her and ask her to marry you!

(ask me how I know) :lol:

Whoa whoa whoa! Slow down there, cowboy. "Relationship broken, add more committment" is a time-tested formula...it's tested to fail every time. You need to work out whatever's going on BEFORE you throw yourself into anything. I reiterate my previous point that she must demonstrate a willingness to work at this relationship too or nothing you do will succeed. And I'm a woman too, so I don't think the above necessarily holds from a "girl's perspective".

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Whoa whoa whoa! Slow down there, cowboy. "Relationship broken, add more committment" is a time-tested formula...it's tested to fail every time. You need to work out whatever's going on BEFORE you throw yourself into anything. I reiterate my previous point that she must demonstrate a willingness to work at this relationship too or nothing you do will succeed. And I'm a woman too, so I don't think the above necessarily holds from a "girl's perspective".

For what it's worth, I agree with Kat.

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Whoa whoa whoa! Slow down there, cowboy. "Relationship broken, add more committment" is a time-tested formula...it's tested to fail every time. You need to work out whatever's going on BEFORE you throw yourself into anything. I reiterate my previous point that she must demonstrate a willingness to work at this relationship too or nothing you do will succeed. And I'm a woman too, so I don't think the above necessarily holds from a "girl's perspective".

The thing is, she has the option to say no to his proposal. That is her choice--and that answer, yes or no, is what will tell all about whether she is committed to the relationship.

They have been together 8 years. Slowing down doesn't strike me as the issue here.

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I must say I admire your dedication, and willingness to work hard. However, I must comment on the the whole shaving cream incident.

I do not consider myself above reproach. If I say or do something stupid by accident, I retain my capacity for humour. This does not sound like one of those incidents. She disrespects you, prevents you from getting the sleep you need to support your apartment, then has the gall to pull a stunt like that? Really? Because that's just disgusting.

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We get along pretty well most of the time. She is working full time, and studying for her CGA(accounting), so she is always busy. She doesn't seem particularly interested in Objectivism any more, because I think she is at a point where she can't understand it more than she does now( like hitting a wall), so she can't be bothered to try. She was interested before(She read atlas in 4 days).That's ok with me since she is busy, but I guess it makes it harder for our relationship. There is a communication barrier, it goes up whenever I bring up something she doesn't understand, or want to. Same with us, when I bring up fixing things, she gets stressed. She always gets stressed. Maybe it is my fault for pushing fixing things that aren't broken, which makes her think I take her away from her work, so really she leaves to focus on what she is doing.

I thought about just asking her to marry me, I even talked about it with her a couple of days ago. I wanted her to know I was serious, but only as something we could get to after we sort things out.

Edited by putofftoolong
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  • 2 weeks later...
We get along pretty well most of the time. She is working full time, and studying for her CGA(accounting), so she is always busy. She doesn't seem particularly interested in Objectivism any more, because I think she is at a point where she can't understand it more than she does now( like hitting a wall), so she can't be bothered to try. She was interested before(She read atlas in 4 days).That's ok with me since she is busy, but I guess it makes it harder for our relationship. There is a communication barrier, it goes up whenever I bring up something she doesn't understand, or want to. Same with us, when I bring up fixing things, she gets stressed. She always gets stressed. Maybe it is my fault for pushing fixing things that aren't broken, which makes her think I take her away from her work, so really she leaves to focus on what she is doing.

I thought about just asking her to marry me, I even talked about it with her a couple of days ago. I wanted her to know I was serious, but only as something we could get to after we sort things out.

The whole thing about her reading Atlas in 4 days is not impressive. Atlas is a book that is to be digested. If she doesn't fully understand objectivism as you say it's likely because she read it so fast she didn't think about the points made in the book, nor the antendre behind every line (although I'm aware Atlas isn't exactly about objectivism).

I'm currently studying for my CGA (near the end where it's very time consuming) but I would make time for someone I loved. Hell I have time to post on these forums! :D I think, and this is just a quick assumption of your predicament based on experience with behaviour like this, that she is not in love with you. 8 years IS a long time. People grow and change. I don't believe in historical determinism as much as the next objectivist, and those 8 years ARE the past. You must asess what type of people you are now. If she won't talk about it, it's not important to her and she's just trying to spare your feelings. If it was important she would lie awake at night until she could speak with you. It would bug her NOT to talk about it, not talking about it.

Also, about fixing things that aren't broken: what isn't broken? your relationship is obviously broken off and communication has crawled to a standstill (at least on her part). I had this bullshit fed to me as a teen and didn't take it then. Don't take it as you are now. If it's broken to you, then it's broken because it takes 2 (as they say). Don't start self doubting. If she values her work over you that should tell you exactly where you stand. Accounting is boring, take it from me. We do it because it's stimulating and interesting - but learning it is HORRIBLE! It's memorizing arbitrary format for the most part. If she loves that over you I'm very sorry but she doesn't love you my friend. However, don't go taking any objectivist girls from me. They are few and far between so I need the odds in my favor as much as I can get! :P

Edited by ChimeraBlack
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  • 1 month later...
For whatever reason, she wasn't interested, or rather couldn't get over that next step and so gave it up. As I entered the last 18 months, she was getting distant. Finally last March she said she didn't feel the same. I told her if that was the case, she had to leave. The next day I called her, we met, and got back together. Things were good for awile but we had things to still work out. She unfortunately didn't want too and or didn't know what to do. Finally, it was decided that we would break up, last weekend. We went right from we should fix this, to I don't want to. In other words, 8 years gone without even trying and I cannot find the central cause.

I think your answer is right here. She wasn't interested, didn't want to, didn't feel the same, didn't know what to do. It sounds like she was simply drifting along in your relationship, like a shopping cart in a sloped parking lot.

Some possibilities-she wasn't really independant enough at the start, so now that she is, she wants more. Which leaves the annoying feeling that I didn't attract the independant type and therefore wouldn't now.

I think that, rather than being an issue of independence versus dependence, she was looking for someone to fill the void in her sense of self. When you weren't there because you were working long hours, you were not filling the void and she couldn't take it.

I put off marriage- This was simply a question of whether it was essential. I had the frame of mind that I could never love her less because we were not married, so it was never an issue. Unfortunately, the way this went I kind of regret. We did actually agree to get married, 5 years ago, but then never got back to it. She maintains that the fact we didn't proceed with it was not an issue with her the whole time, but at the same time has said now that it is something she wants. I have a feeling I should not have believed it wasn't important to her and went ahead with it myself.

I think you are beating yourself up unnecessarily here. If marriage was important to her, she could have said something as simple as "Remember when we talked about getting married..." You two had discussed it after all. Maybe you both knew that adding marriage to your relationship wouldn't work.

-She can't deal with the stress working this out will cause her, its easier not to try

That's pretty much the last nail in the coffin, so to speak. Would you really want to be with someone who doesn't want to put herself through the effort to improve your relationship?

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