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Friendship And Love

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I am confused here a bit:

During her lifetime, Ayn Rand was friends with many men, only two of whom, to my knowledge, she ever had sexual relations with. However, Leonard Peikoff, in his lecture Love, Sex, and Romance, states that he doesn't believe friendship among men and women is possible long term without the parties falling in love. This seems to be contradicted by the fact that Peikoff himself was one of Rand's closest friends. Can someone help clear up the conclusion?

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sorry, I couldn't remember the exact words, and so I couldn't find the quote right away, but I finally found it:

at the end of My Thirty Years With Ayn Rand: An Intellectual Memoir (FHF 4/87, Epilogue of VOR):

That is the Ayn Rand I knew. And that is why I loved her.

I realize this only answers about Peikoff, not your question in general.

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sorry, I couldn't remember the exact words, and so I couldn't find the quote right away, but I finally found it:

at the end of My Thirty Years With Ayn Rand: An Intellectual Memoir (FHF 4/87, Epilogue of VOR):

That is the Ayn Rand I knew. And that is why I loved her.

I realize this only answers about Peikoff, not your question in general.

Peikoff was 30 years her junior. He was not talking about romantic love but more along the lines of deep, spiritual love of a teacher and a friend.

As for friendhsips between men and women, I don't know Peikoff's thoughts on this allthough I'd like to, but IMO such long term friendships are possible so long as there is no attraction between the parties. If there is an attraction on one side or both the only thing that can come of it is frustration, which usually leads to disaster.

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As another poster pointed out, Peikoff did not say friendships between men and women are impossible. On the question of whether or not one should habitually dine alone with a member of the opposite sex when in a relationship, what Peikoff said was that it was very ill-advised. He stressed that the real question was, why do you need to see this person alone? But outside such a context, there is no doubt that men and women can be friends.

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  • 3 years later...

I have to say I was going to read this entire thread until I realized how long it was. Here's what I wrote before realizing i was only on page 4 of 7million!

"Part of the thesis of my book is that we, as men, have never discovered romance; that we are largely ignorant of the process of romantic love."

Ladies and gentlemen, I do believe we just found out why the girl he wrote the book about left him. There are 2 types of guys. The repressors and the expressors. I had few but very strong friendships when I was young because I was an expressor. We didn't get our jollies and comradery from insulting each other as you state as part of the ritual. We actually hated that shit because we were sensetive and sought closeness through revealing our innermost feelings as you suggest only women are able.

"I would add that while I don't have a problem with sex without love (under certain conditions), I despise this "friends with benefits" nonsense. If you sleep with a friend once, okay. But then it's time to decide: friend, or lover? But this idea that we will have regular sex but no romantic relationship is baffling to me, and I think, unjustifiable. Of course, I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary."

I have been fortunate to be in a unique situation where a friend of mine for many years and I have fooled around a number of times and have never felt committed nor romantic towards the other. This may have come in part by our agreement to never actually have sex. Everything else is fine, but sex was too far for us. I'd be willing to bet that out there somewhere is a situation very much like that one where sex was actually involved. Her and I are still friends to this day, however I have become much more stringent in the selection criteria of a female companion. I have also decided that I will not have sex without romance ever again, and that would include the things I did with my friend here. I have also pledged to myself not to have sex with women right away as I have in the past. I will build a relationship so that the sex will be meaningful. I realized a lot of it was because I felt they wouldn't think I was man enough If I didn't go for it right away. I realized that was a naieve and weak point of view. From the point I pledged this on, I will have sex when I want to (when it's available), on my terms. I won't succumb to social pressures of this sort. I also feel the urge not to post this, but I refuse to succumb to that weakness either. My feelings are my own and anyone who doesn't respect them is not someone I shall concern myself with.

As for this whole debate where Kevin and DPW are saying that lovers cannot also be friends, I think the main argument is that the dynamics of human interaction have been grossly underestimated OR Kevin and DPW are not friends with anyone they are romantically attracted to and therefore cannot perceive how anyone else could be. I have only been in love once and I still analyze it years later. I know from experience that the love partially came from the fact that I could argue vicerally with her one moment (sometimes screaming at each other) and be lusting after her the next. We were not friends at first. In fact we were enemies. I thought she was stupid and cliche and she thought I was a complete asshole. Through argument we realized how similar we were and that our perceptions were completely wrong. We became friends as we became lovers. The non sexual part was the "friends" situation you refer to. The sexual part was only so great because of the romance we felt for eachother which was catalysed by the friendship.

You see, when you're not being sexual and you're friends as though you would be with any man (we even play-fought) AND you have the sexual attraction and romantic interest, the relationship is whole and more fulfilling than any other. When you lose such a thing it is equally devastating as it is fulfilling. I hope you find out how wrong you are some day Kevin, and DPW. Your whole world will change. Don't be a repressor, be an expressor.

DPW said"No, what I wrote is like saying, "I'd rather eat a fine meal than gnaw on a bone, but I'd rather gnaw on a bone than starve to death."

I'd much rather starve to death trying to find the best cut of meat. Just a personal perogative.

KellyMeg80 Said "I tried to put our two or three cents in and had insults such as "intrinsicist" and "rationalist" thrown at us"

Rationalist is an insult? I thought it meant someone who makes decisions about life through rationality.

DPW said "That goes back to the distinction I made between the way two people discuss ideas and the fact that they discuss ideas. As you point out, some debates are silly, annoying, even destructive, but that does not imply that debates as such are bad for a romantic relationship."

Don't I know it. I'm currently in an online debate with 3 anarcho-syndicalists. 2 have dropped off in ways that satisfy their egos but one still goes as far as to say that I'm an entrepreneur if I go to the welfare office and fill out an application. Talk about saving face gone mad. To read this debate or contribute go to http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14951730059

AwakeandFree said "Debating is not romantic, no question about it. First, it's not physical. Second, it's a form of conflict, and conflict is not romantic"

It may not be romantic but it's EFFING sexy when a girl can argue/debate against me effectively. Ever heard of make up sex? =P Kinda like that.

PS. I really like pretty much everything Fasheezy has to say =D. Much love brotha!

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