Objectivist View on Dreams

[iago]

I just sent the following email to Leonard Peikoff, the legal and intellectual heir of Ayn Rand:

I read from the Ayn Rand Lexicon a text written by you on "The Philosophy of Objectivism". You said that Objectivists reject the whole Freudian unconscious theory. If you reject the unconscious I suppose you also dismiss the idea of the "primary process" of timeless and unconcious associations. That left me with some questions in mind: If there is no unconcious and no primary process, then how do you explain dreams? What kind of meaning do dreams have? And by what kind of mental process are they produced?

Since objectivism believes that a man can and should be guided solely by reason, I believe it's obvious that they reject the whole idea of an unconcious mind ruled by a non-logical mental process such as the "primary process" described in Freudian Psychology...

Now that leaves us with a problem: Dreams are pure fantasy and there is obviously no logic on the surface... Now if there is now such thing as a primary process of irracional timeless associations running in the human mind, then by what kind of mental process are dreams made? They are usually about very emotionally charged subjects, but do they have any significance at all? Is there any use in using dreams as a tool of understanding human psychology?

I would also like to know about the Oedipus Complex... I believe there is enough evidence to justify it, but how can it be compatible with a purely rational view of man's mind?

Anybody here risks an answer?

Edited August 4, 2008 by iago

[D'kian]

Now that leaves us with a problem: Dreams are pure fantasy and there is obviously no logic on the surface... Now if there is now such thing as a primary process of irracional timeless associations running in the human mind, then by what kind of mental process are dreams made?

The question first is: why do we dream at all?

So let's look at two physiological facts: 1) the living tissues in the eye lack blood vessels. they receive nutrients and oxygen through diffusion in the vitrous humor (the liquid inside the eye ball). 2) When asleep, all mammals, including man, experience several times a night a period of rapis eye movement (REM) during which dreams happen (well, at least in man they do).

So one hypothesis holds that the closed eye receives less fluids and oxygen than an active, open eye (when open, the eyes move almost constantly; try fixating your sight on one point, and you'll see what I mean). Therefore when asleep the REM state is a reflex caused by the eyes' needs for nourishment. This drives the mind into a partial wakefulness and one consequence are dreams (if this is so, then all other mammals possibly also dream). This view holds that dreams are made up on the spot by a disoriented mind trying to get back to sleep.

Is this true? I've no idea, but it makes sense.

Also, you may wnat to look up what Objectivism has to say about the subconcious mind.

[Tenure]

Do you mean subconscious, not unconscious?

[aequalsa]

(if this is so, then all other mammals possibly also dream).

I'm fairly certain that they do. My dog seems to have them occasionally. Quiet barks with swatting of the paws. It's a trip to watch. I assume he's chasing cats in them, but can't be certain.

[DavidOdden]

Dreams are pure fantasy and there is obviously no logic on the surface...

The primary problem I see here is that dreams are not pure fantasy, although they are not tightly bound to observation and focused reasoning. They are part fantasy.

[JMeganSnow]

Now that leaves us with a problem: Dreams are pure fantasy and there is obviously no logic on the surface... Now if there is now such thing as a primary process of irracional timeless associations running in the human mind, then by what kind of mental process are dreams made? They are usually about very emotionally charged subjects, but do they have any significance at all? Is there any use in using dreams as a tool of understanding human psychology?

What do you mean by "pure fantasy"? The dreams that I remember ALWAYS involve people, places, and things that I've seen before. Occasionally they're in combinations that I don't recall ever seeing in waking life, but I've never dreamed about anything that doesn't exist.

The answers to your other questions depend, also, on what you mean by them. It is probably a worthwhile study to discover the reason why we dream, but since it's pretty much a universal phenomenon, it's probably a physiological reason, not a psychological one. Now, the reason why any *particular* person has a *particular* dream may be psychological and thus may assist a professional psychologist in learning some salient facts about that *particular* person's psychology--for instance, if I were to tell someone about my dreams, they would probably be able to infer very quickly that I have a fear of falling and I've worked with corpses and dwelled on death quite a bit. But I don't think you can consider dreams some kind of secret window into the hidden depths of a person's mind, just from considering the nature of my own dreams: they're pretty shallow.

I would also like to know about the Oedipus Complex... I believe there is enough evidence to justify it, but how can it be compatible with a purely rational view of man's mind?

Someone remind me what a Complex is? Is it a common or semi-common psychological dysfunction of some kind? In any case, I have no idea what you think you mean by a "purely rational view of man's mind". No Objectivist would claim that people are always, automatically rational, so why should we dispute the existence of psychological complexes?

IIRC an Oedipus Complex is when a man finds himself wishing he could supplant his father--like Oedipus, kill his father and marry his mother. If the adult male in the household is highly competitive and puts pressure on his male offspring, this would be a logical result, a subconsciously automatized emotional attitude that forms before the child is old enough to consciously and rationally monitor his emotions. A lot of people have "leftover" neuroses like this to varying degrees.

[D'kian]

I'm fairly certain that they do. My dog seems to have them occasionally. Quiet barks with swatting of the paws. It's a trip to watch. I assume he's chasing cats in them, but can't be certain.

I think that's just movement while sleeping, kind of like when people roll over in bed or talk in their sleep. During REM sleep in people, at least, the body doesn't move at all; I suppose the same holds for other mammals.

I also suppose scientists have taken measurements of other mammalian brains while asleep. EKGs, CTs, etc. It would be simple enough to do. From that they should know whether dreams take place or not. But I've no idea.

[iago]

First of all, I should have pointed the article that originated my questioning about this subject:

http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/freud.html

Also:

Imagination according to objectivism:

"Man’s imagination is nothing more than the ability to rearrange the things he has observed in reality."

http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/imagination.html

Definition of fantasy according to the Webster's dictionary:

"the free play of creative imagination"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fantasy

Therefore, since the primary function of the mind is to perceive and not to create, any sort of fantasy will be base on concepts created from observing reality.

All my dreams are made up of elements of places I've been before.

Let's take a dream that I had the other day as an example: I dreamed that I was in a car with a friend driving on a road next to a beach… I've been in that beach, but never in that car, and my friend has never been to that beach or driven that car.

One thing I'm sure of: Even though my dreams are involuntary fantasies, they do follow my value judgements.

If there is a person I don't care about, I might dream about her, but in the dream I won't care about her either. My dreams always follow my value judgements. Whatever judgment I had of my friend in waking life I also had in that dream about the beach. I could only perceive that consistency with my values after I studied and came to believe in objectivism in depth, before that my value judgments in my dreams would freak me out sometimes… Is that the same with you?

Rand said that most people are not fully conscious of their philosophy of life, do you think that that's why their dreams have value judgments which are unknown to them in a conscious level?

Now what intrigues me is: The judgments I make and the feelings I have are based on premises that are know to me, but what kind of mental process produces that specific fantasy that I have in the dream? Why THAT beach with THAT car with THAT friend? That combination seems like a random way the mind finds to express desires and feelings… And that is the key to the problem: it's random. If it's random that means there is an irrational agent operating in the human mind, which means that, unless that agent is subordinated to the rational function of the mind (which I believe it is), we cannot be guided solely by reason…

Now I believe that men can rationally program their so called "superego", and that proves Freud wrong in my opinion... But the involuntary making of the dream fantasies makes me wonder if there is really something hidden in there… Something we can never consciously be aware of…

The objectivist view of the "subconscious" (as opposed to Freud's "unconscious") is of something that is rational but is achieved in the "system's" (the objectivist view of the mind, which is similar to a computer) memory and is not in use by the conscious mind , where the processing (thinking) happens.

http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/subconscious.html

That explains my dreams value judgments, but it does NOT explain the involuntary process of creating the dream's fantasy scenario.

From analyzing my own mind and my own dreams for a couple of months, my conclusion so far is:

1) Freud is WRONG, because a person's "superego" (value judgments) are NOT beyond a person's control and CAN be rationally programmed. Value judgments are NOT innate, or else reading Atlas Shrugged could not impact a person's life as much as it does.

2) Rand's theory is at least INCOMPLETE, because it does NOT explain the involuntary process of "fantasy-scenario making" that happen when a person dreams.

Rand did say that psychology is a "baby science" and that it still needs an equivalent of an Aristotle to even organize it's material and systematize it's problems… She rejected both Psychoanalysis and Behaviorism.

"Here the controversy is between the claim that man is moved by innate ideas, and the claim that he has no ideas at all."

http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/psychology.html

That’s as far as I got in thinking about this for the last days…

For people interested in psychoanalytic theory I would like to suggest this book, which is where I learned about it:

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Freud-Psychoan...y/dp/046503716X

Any further thoughts on "Objectivism and Psychoanalysis"?

And by the way… Could anyone invite Nathaniel Branden to this debate? Lol...

[aequalsa]

I think that's just movement while sleeping, kind of like when people roll over in bed or talk in their sleep. During REM sleep in people, at least, the body doesn't move at all; I suppose the same holds for other mammals.

I also suppose scientists have taken measurements of other mammalian brains while asleep. EKGs, CTs, etc. It would be simple enough to do. From that they should know whether dreams take place or not. But I've no idea.

MIT says they do dream.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2001/dreaming.html

(In case anyone was interested )

[brian0918]

I think that's just movement while sleeping, kind of like when people roll over in bed or talk in their sleep. During REM sleep in people, at least, the body doesn't move at all; I suppose the same holds for other mammals.

No, there's definitely some sort of dreaming going on in dogs and cats. Their heads, ears, and legs will start to flinch rapidly and they'll wimper. It's most dangerous to wake them up then - they'll freak out just like a human awoken from a bad dream.

As for talking in your sleep - that too is a product of dreaming, so you're only proving the point.

It's nothing like simply rolling over in bed.

Edited August 5, 2008 by brian0918

[avgleandt]

2) Rand's theory is at least INCOMPLETE, because it does NOT explain the involuntary process of "fantasy-scenario making" that happen when a person dreams.

I don't think Rand was interested in explaining the technicality of how dreams are formed. Thats not a philosophers job, its more for a scientist.

Does anybody here able to Lucid dream. I can, and your understanding of dreams changes once you can do that. For example, I am concious of how my particular thoughts in my dream produce the particular imagery, scenarios, and events. As a result I am able to manipulate the dream almost fully.

[brian0918]

Does anybody here able to Lucid dream. I can, and your understanding of dreams changes once you can do that. For example, I am concious of how my particular thoughts in my dream produce the particular imagery, scenarios, and events. As a result I am able to manipulate the dream almost fully.

I've been able to do that occasionally, but I don't plan it ahead of time. I remember once being able to get my bed to float off the floor and start turning around, and then I suddenly woke up and grabbed the sides of the bed in panic, thinking I would fall off. More recently, I had a nightmare that I was being chased. Eventually I just decided (somehow) that I was just dreaming and I'd had enough of the nightmare, and woke up.

Edited August 5, 2008 by brian0918

[D'kian]

No, there's definitely some sort of dreaming going on in dogs and cats. Their heads, ears, and legs will start to flinch rapidly and they'll wimper. It's most dangerous to wake them up then - they'll freak out just like a human awoken from a bad dream.

I'm willing to accept that. But do dogs and cats dream the way we do? Do they see, hear and maybe smell things that aren't there? Do they understand they're dreaming? Sometimes I wish we could ask them that.

As for talking in your sleep - that too is a product of dreaming, so you're only proving the point.

As I understand it talking while sleeping can be caused by a dream or it can just happen. I sometimes talk so loud I wake myself up, especially in the mornings. Now, when I wake up directly from a dream, I remember it rather well. When I wake myself up talking I ahve no memories of recent dreams. So I'm sure they're not ncessarily realted.

BTW, as one drifts of into sleep sometimes a thing similar to dreaming takes palce, but as far as I know it's not a dream. You kind of begin to fantasize randomly, but you're conscious of it. Sometimes you see, or hear, or think something that seems important or remarkable and you wake up. If you can recall what it was, it's usually something totally random, nonsensical, or ridiculous.

Another thing. While I usually dream of people, places and things I know, it's not rare for me to dream of people, places and things I don't know. Often I dream of strangers. I also have many dreams "set" on other worlds, worlds that don't exist. This isn't surprising to me, seeing how I read and watch vast quantities of science fiction. But I rarely dream of books I've read or shows I've seen.

Edited August 5, 2008 by D'kian

[brian0918]

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I've always liked the idea that dreams are attempts at simulating possible future events. The problem for humans, at least in modern times, is that we have so many inputs that any attempts at running simulations become useless. If all you did was hunt animals everyday, maybe your dreams would cater to that. Are there any documented records of dreams in hunter/gatherer tribes?

Edited August 5, 2008 by brian0918

[D'kian]

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I've always liked the idea that dreams are attempts at simulating possible future events.

The latest theories suggest dreams are a mechanism of the long term-memory for integrating long term memories. In other words the reverse of what you're thinking.

Are there any documented records of dreams in hunter/gatherer tribes?

I should think not. such tribes were too primitive to even have invented writing. All we know wbout them comes from remains and the pictures they sometimes painted on cave walls (which is not writing). I suppose it's possible some of the paintings represented dreams, but how would we know?

If any hunter/gatherer tribes still exist somewhere in the Amazon or Africa, I suppose they could be asked about it.

Come to think of it, how much information about dreams has been preserved? I mean about the contents of dreams? There's the dream of the Pharaoh (I think) about fat cows and lean cows in Exodus, but I don't consider that a reliable source. And at the time, dream interpretation ranked up there with astrology and other nonsense as prognostication tools (and for some people it still does).

[DavidOdden]

I should think not.

I should think there are. You seem to be conflating dreaming and documentation. It's well documented that hunter-gatherers dream; the documentation is provided by civilized anthropologists / folklorists who have writing systems.

[D'kian]

I should think there are. You seem to be conflating dreaming and documentation. It's well documented that hunter-gatherers dream; the documentation is provided by civilized anthropologists / folklorists who have writing systems.

Therefore my comment on contemporary primitive tribes. But those would ahve their world view somewhat altered by contact with the modern world. And that makes them different from hunter/gatherer tribes that existed before the advent of civilization.

[DavidOdden]

Therefore my comment on contemporary primitive tribes. But those would ahve their world view somewhat altered by contact with the modern world. And that makes them different from hunter/gatherer tribes that existed before the advent of civilization.

I see. So you were addressing a point other than the original one that "if all you did was hunt animals everyday, maybe your dreams would cater to that". I would suppose you had in mind a question like "What kind of dreams to those with no knowledge at all of outsiders have?". So of course, the answer is "we cannot ever know". As I say, there are plenty of documented records of dreams in hunter/gatherer tribes, just no documented records of anything at all regarding people who have had no contact at all with the outside.

[TheEgoist]

Also, you may wnat to look up what Objectivism has to say about the subconcious mind.

Just wondering; did Rand or any Objectivist intellectuals write on this in any substantial way?

[agrippa1]

I've seen films of cats which have had the part of their brain that immobilizes animals during sleep removed. The unconscious cats chase and play with prey or toys which do not exist in reality. I don't see any way around the conclusion that cats (and dogs) dream.

I've been reading Consilience by Edward O. Wilson. I don't want to comment on the thesis, except to say that I'm highly dubious of where he might be going wrt social sciences, but he does explore dreaming with some good scientific basis and provides an explanation that I can accept (roughly summarized):

The conscious mind continuously works to integrate memory with current perceptions in order to create a model of reality free from contradictions. During dreaming, visual perception is closed off, and the brain struggles to integrate random signals from the brain stem called PGO (pons - geniculate nuclei - occipital cortex) waves. The PGO system falsely reports to the cortex that the body is in motion. The brain then pulls memories and integrates them in response to the waves coming from the pons. Unconstrained by information from the outside world, and deprived of the context and continuity of space and time, the brain constructs images and events that are often bizarre or impossible in the context of our waking perception of reality, but are believed at the time of dreaming. (some direct quoting from book)

[JMeganSnow]

There are actually two "glitches" in humans that are pretty interesting. One is sleep paralysis, in which it appears that the mind is awake (sort of) but the body remains stuck in "sleep" mode. It can produce some pretty terrifying hallucinations. The other is, as with the cats, where people dream but their body is *not* paralyzed.

Sleep as a phenomenon is not really understood.

[LiberTodd]

What do you mean by "pure fantasy"? The dreams that I remember ALWAYS involve people, places, and things that I've seen before. Occasionally they're in combinations that I don't recall ever seeing in waking life, but I've never dreamed about anything that doesn't exist.

Unfortunately I have. Some pretty horrible stuff, too.

I have had dreams which, after thinking a lot about them, have discovered a profound significance in the imagery and symbolism of the dreams. They were all focused on things I knew about myself, but did not want to admit. Problems I didn't have the courage to face. I think the rational side of my brain was rebelling against my self-delusion I had created, forcing me to face my faults. However, the fact that it was all symbolism which I interpreted means I could be very wrong, it could all be random imagery that happened to fit together if I looked at it with certain things in mind. I think most dreams are just an idle process for your brain, nothing spectacular. But perhaps one can have an effect on the way they dream if a persistent, large-scale personal problem is thrown in the mix.

[LovesLife]

Now that leaves us with a problem: Dreams are pure fantasy and there is obviously no logic on the surface... Now if there is now such thing as a primary process of irracional timeless associations running in the human mind, then by what kind of mental process are dreams made? They are usually about very emotionally charged subjects, but do they have any significance at all? Is there any use in using dreams as a tool of understanding human psychology?

One theory about dreams is that they come about as part of the process of integrating short-term memories into long-term ones as you sleep.

Memory storage in the brain is an interesting process. Memories aren't stored in a particular spot; they are spread over much of the brain. Rather than being like bits of memory in a computer, they seem to be more like sets of electronic waves and semi-holographic interference patterns. The brain never turns off. Random electronic impulses might cause random images or sequences to occur (many dreams that feel like they take place over a long period actually happen very quickly). As with memory and the brain in general, the exact mechanisms are not well-understood.

There's no magic about dreams, although it's certainly possible that they have some psychological significance -- perhaps as a view into other thoughts or memories.

[JJJJ]

Sleep as a phenomenon is not really understood.

That proves that God has something to do with it!

To be serious, i usually have at least 5 dreams / week i can recall when i wake up, and i remember a time a few years ago, when i had this odd streak of having really detailed and visual dreams for a couple of weeks straight. If i were a filmmaker or author, i would have had material for a couple of 2h films or 300 page novels. It was really odd, because many were of the sort, where i could wake up in the middle of the night, go to the bathroom and remember what i've dreamt, and once i got back to sleep i would just continue with the dream.

I've had a few recurring dreams, the last few years, where i get a letter from my university telling me i have to return to high school for a year to complete some classes i apparently missed. Then, instantly im back at my high school.... I didnt really have any problems in high school, so i dont know where these dreams are coming from, but i see it quite often.

Still, i asked this question from a couple of my friends, and noone had any similar experiences, so i thought id ask you: When i see dreams that are particularly bad, where something bad happens to me, i can consciously stop the dream, and wake up. Its a bit difficult to explain, but its like i decide that "no, this isnt real", and in that excact same instant, im already awake. I dont know if this is the same thing that happens with the deja vu effect, where your brain messes up the order of the event happening and the recollection, so it could just be that my brain thinks that i came up with the idea of "this isnt real" after i noticed i was awake, and that my mind just plays tricks on me....

[Tom Hall]

...I've been reading Consilience by Edward O. Wilson...(roughly summarized):

That's an interesting explanation of dreaming; that it's basically the way the brain deals with random false information about motion. Information about motion is certainly fundamental to survival so that seems to explain why dreams are "believed at the time of dreaming".