Losing friends due to objectivism

[BlackInMind]

I've read about this sort of thing happening, but I just experienced it first hand. Happened to be someone that I've known for almost 10 years and that at a time I considered one of my closest friends. Granted, we've grown apart somewhat, but I still considered him a friend with traits that I admired.

Recently, we got into a political argument (he's a liberal, I'll keep it at that haha) and he used that as an excuse to send me an email that opened a floodgate of downright hatred towards me for being a "selfish, horrible person that doesn't care about anyone or anything else except your own self interest" and that "a lot of our mutual friends think you're pathetic because of it although they won't say it to your face." And also saying that my gradual change in music and clothing taste was due to me trying to be something I'm not and that "your friends know what you should be like." There was a lot more viciousness to it that isn't necessary to reiterate, but you'd think I raped his girlfriend.

If it were anyone else it'd be a lot easier to brush off, but me an this guy have a very long history and have had a lot of really good times together. Not to mention, the whole "all of our other mutual friends think say bad shit about you behind your back all the time" has me feeling untrusting of all the people I know that he knows as well, which is a good handful of people I associate with.

I'm really kind of a bit stunned right now, but I know it shouldn't get to me. I had flashbacks of Rearden's family and wife scolding him the entire time reading what my friend wrote. Just not really sure what to say to some of my other friends that he implied felt similarly about me. Anything similar happen to anyone here?

[Juxtys]

The only reason why it did not happen for me is because I never had many friends. Since I slowly became an Objectivist, I made a lot of new intellectual enemies, not to mention fools who like to make fun of my ideals. I would not care too much about it, I always was some sort of outcast, but when they begin trolling about Objectivism being evil and me being a mindless Objectivist fanatic, I get really furiuos. I think one way of decreasing tension between those who disagree with you, especcially with your friends, is to learn respecting thir opinions. Yes, it is very difficult if their views are in some case stupid. In that case, try finding something you both agree with.

[Sarrisan]

Unfortunately, it's kind of inevitable that something like this happens to most Objectivists (Unless you happen to know great people who are open to the ideas of Objectivism, but alas, such people are rare). As humans, we are attracted to those people who share our values. Once those values change, so will our relationships. That being said, I honestly doubt the loss of someone so vile could be anything but a positive for you. His attacks are second-handed calls to what you should be, how you should act, according to his evil standard. As for the allegation involving your friends, I would ignore it until you get further evidence. It's probably just another baseless attempt to guilt-trip you into abandoning your values.

Personally, I haven't experienced anything so harsh (For the same reasons as Juxtys; I was a loner before Objectivism), but I've drifted away from the venues and groups I used to frequent. It may hurt a little at first, because these are people you once valued, but I've come to see that, more often than not, that value is no longer really warranted.

Having said that, you should do whatever you can to gently "convert" your friends, if you can, but don't lose too much sleep over this.

[Zip]

BlackInMind, did you ever stop to think that this person might just be angry that you are moving on (and growing) without him?

Insecure people can do some pretty nasty things when they feel they are being abandoned by their friends.

[KendallJ]

Recently, we got into a political argument (he's a liberal, I'll keep it at that haha) and he used that as an excuse to send me an email that opened a floodgate of downright hatred towards me for being a "selfish, horrible person that doesn't care about anyone or anything else except your own self interest" and that "a lot of our mutual friends think you're pathetic because of it although they won't say it to your face." And also saying that my gradual change in music and clothing taste was due to me trying to be something I'm not and that "your friends know what you should be like." There was a lot more viciousness to it that isn't necessary to reiterate, but you'd think I raped his girlfriend.

Sometimes people ostracize you for reasons that might have to do with one's misinterpretation of Objectivism. I've seen the ideas be a sheild for all sorts of misguided behavior. However, in this case, it seems your friend disrespects you, on principle.

The shot about your friends is cheap, and the attempt to claw you back to "what you should be" strikes me as nothing more than envy.

Just based upon what you've said here, he doesnt' strike me as a friend that you'd need or want. How does it feel to be dis-valued for reasons that you hold dear, and in the process of attempting to be something that you have the potential to be? If the answer is "not so good" the know that everyone deserves to be valued for the reasons they are most proud of and for the values they hold dear, and they shouldn't stop until they find people like that to be friends with.

If it were anyone else it'd be a lot easier to brush off, but me an this guy have a very long history and have had a lot of really good times together. Not to mention, the whole "all of our other mutual friends think say bad shit about you behind your back all the time" has me feeling untrusting of all the people I know that he knows as well, which is a good handful of people I associate with.

It's true that history means something in relationships, but only in the context of shared values should it weigh on your decision to continue a relationship with him.

BlackInMind, did you ever stop to think that this person might just be angry that you are moving on (and growing) without him?

Insecure people can do some pretty nasty things when they feel they are being abandoned by their friends.

Good point, Zip. That's a possiblity too. You could test this too.

[Pete Caya]

I'm having the same thing going on with one of my friends. I have only known him for about three months, and we were really good friends when we first met, but it's starting to dawn on me that he is extremely selfless. I've talked him through a few depressions since I've known him, because I like to do that for friends when they feel bad (I have a selfish investiture in their feelings, I'm not trying to feel like I'm better than them). Anyway, he doesn't contact me at all, so it's generally me walking up to and talking to him. He gets drunk often with friends, and jokingly calls himself things like "scumbag" and the like. The thing that really threw me though is that when I was discussing the election, I realized he wasn't just someone that was misguided. He told me point blank that others have the right to steal from the rich because anyone could have done what they have done. He also clings to this one friend of mine and acts really touchy-feel with her even though she has no interest in him and it really upsets me to see him doing that.

Sorry needed to vent. Anyway, I am pretty sure I am going to cut off associating with him regularly. He'll just become another face that I say "How's it going dude" to.

Don't get too upset over this fellow. He's probably lying about your friends, and honestly, he doesn't sound like someone that you want to associate with anyway.

[Maximus]

I had a former friend flat out call me a "douchebag" recently during a discussion on the current economic woes, for expousing O'ist views. I choose no longer to associate with this person.

[BlackInMind]

Sometimes people ostracize you for reasons that might have to do with one's misinterpretation of Objectivism. I've seen the ideas be a sheild for all sorts of misguided behavior. However, in this case, it seems your friend disrespects you, on principle.

The shot about your friends is cheap, and the attempt to claw you back to "what you should be" strikes me as nothing more than envy.

Just based upon what you've said here, he doesnt' strike me as a friend that you'd need or want. How does it feel to be dis-valued for reasons that you hold dear, and in the process of attempting to be something that you have the potential to be? If the answer is "not so good" the know that everyone deserves to be valued for the reasons they are most proud of and for the values they hold dear, and they shouldn't stop until they find people like that to be friends with.

It's true that history means something in relationships, but only in the context of shared values should it weigh on your decision to continue a relationship with him.

Kendall, I've certainly been considering envy as a factor here. We're both musicians, and although I have some small success with my band and two albums under my belt, for the last 5 years he's yet to move past "getting around to doing a demo". He didn't fail to take a nice slew of potshots at how I'm never going to make it (due to my selfishness, mind you). I'm sure he is jealous that I'm farther along than he is. Its a shame to me that he is, because one of the reasons I still liked associating with him is that I think he's a great guitar player in his own right, probably better than I am on a technical level for sure.

I don't think the guy knows specifically that I study objectivism... its only been something I'm studying seriously for a year now, although I've always sort of thought along similar lines (probably due to my father, his values are dead on with objectivism) so I took to it pretty readily. The group of friends he's a part of are all pretty strong liberals (as was I before I got into objectivism and realized what a huuuuge contradiction that was to my core beliefs ), and I know I got ostracized pretty badly when I mentioned to them I wasn't voting for Obama. Luckily, I'm making new friends that do share my values... this is just very strange for me to be put in a position where I'm losing friends that I otherwise enjoy the company of specifically because of what I value.

[khaight]

Luckily, I'm making new friends that do share my values... this is just very strange for me to be put in a position where I'm losing friends that I otherwise enjoy the company of specifically because of what I value.

Part of what is going on here is a difference in value hierarchy. You and your friend shared some values (e.g. music) and held some values that conflicted (e.g. your political views). But you ranked them differently. It sounds as though you considered the values you shared to be more important in the context of the relationship than the values you did not share. Your friend decided otherwise.

In effect, you like him in spite of his politics and he dislikes you in spite of your shared musical values. That's his choice.

[KindredAmy]

This is a story of an Objectivist breaking it off with another, which is very sad. Maybe this should be on another thread, but here goes...

What do you do when a long-time friend (best man at our wedding) and Objectivist stops growing intellectually with you AND becomes so negative over time, he constantly clashes with your sense of life? A person I ran a study group with decided that I was attacking him for giving him suggestions about our group. He didn't want to (or couldn't) explain why he was angry (or how my suggestions where wrong), or to explain why he complained about his life all the time, and decided not to communicate with me about it anymore because it was "too painful for him." Mind you, his lack of introspection and general unhappiness gradually occurred, and he was much nicer and more considerate when I first met him 13 years ago.

I wanted to work through this, but realized that he wasn't open to developing any deeper understandings between us. The bottom line is, he wanted to be a victim. I realized that he was insecure, taking suggestions as personal insults, who wanted me as a friend (mainly because he was friends with my husband) but didn't want to work on our friendship. I had to make the heart-wrenching decision not to associate with him anymore, even if it would cost me some mutual (and wonderful) Objectivist friends (and it did cost me leaving behind a study group that I put most of the energy and thought and planning into over 8 years).

Luckily, it all worked out for the best, and most people were very understanding. After a long while, I decided to start my own group, and we are flourishing. Anyway, that's the closest, most traumatic, example I can come to in comparison. It's still difficult for me, but I'm remembering to leave it behind every day and focus on what I can do instead of what I can't (changing his mind and sense of life and trying to make our old group work, which, by the way, he still runs, to my displeasure). Anyway...

It sounds like your ex-friend is just awful. You spend so many years with him, enjoying each other, and admiring his judgment -- then he throws every insult at you that he can think of, trying to convince you that it's all your fault. Don't fall for it. He has treated you badly and it's time to find a better friend, and you will. Don't fall for the old "our friends hate you" trick. If you have no evidence for it, and you truly admire your mutual friends, hang out with them without the ex around. Don't think of your mutual friends as a group, but as individuals. If you feel comfortable, open up about the split to someone you trust.

I doubt if your ex-friend's dislike for you has much to do with Objectivism, or any single political argument. It most likely has everything to do with how you are improving, psychologically and intellectually, and he is not. How secure you are with yourself and the world, and he is not. I'm sure there are plenty of indications besides talking Objectivism that show the world (and him) who you are, how you hold yourself, how careful you are with your words, and how much you take ideas seriously in general. It looks like he is threatened by that, he doesn't want to change, and the easiest way for him to squash that threat is to try to squash you. He doesn't want to face his own inefficacy.

Remember that real friends will always encourage what will make you happy, and they want to see you happy for their own selfish inspiration. Good luck and keep your chin up!