Bullies Enjoy Hurting Others

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

Sometimes, I'm just aghast at what scientists have to observe in order to confirm something that is already known through regular non-scientific investigations. That is, yes, it was already clear to me that bullies derive pleasure out of taunting others -- I mean, it is obvious. However, a new study not only confirms this, but also shows that their cerebral cortex does not fire, which means they are going by emotions rather than reason. The brute is not fully human.

They showed both groups video clips of someone inflicting pain on another person and tracked brain activity with a type of imaging called functional magnetic resonance imaging, or fMRI.

In the aggressive teens, areas of the brain linked with feeling rewarded -- the amygdala and ventral striatum -- became very active when they observed pain being inflicted on others.

I guess it is true to some extent that most scientists just don't operate on the common sense level. They have to see how the brain lights up under an MRI in order to draw a conclusion about someone's mental state. I do think, however, that these bullies do this with intent -- in other words, even if they do have some sort of brain malfunction, they could act against it using their free will, and this study does not give any moral excuse to bullying.

[D'kian]

Sometimes, I'm just aghast at what scientists have to observe in order to confirm something that is already known through regular non-scientific investigations. That is, yes, it was already clear to me that bullies derive pleasure out of taunting others -- I mean, it is obvious.

To quote Agent K In MIB "A thousand years ago everyone knew the Earth was flat."

The point is that some common assumptions of knowledge can be wrong. Science doesn't take things for granted, but rather seeks answers. Now, in the case of bullying, we know they derive pleasure from hurting their victims. Fine. But do they really enjoy it, or is it something else? First you determine that for certain with objective evidence (not necessarily fMRI, but that is valid). Next the scientists invovled ought to figure out why bullies enjoy hurting other people. That could result in a treatment of some kind.

There's also some value in testing common held beliefs, be they rigth or wrong. Aside rfom the fact that sometimes what's known to be right turns out to be wrong, and viceversa, it's useful to know why it's right or wrong, and how right or wrong. A good example is the TV show "Mythbusters."

Granted many of the myths they confirm or bust are of little use for anyone, they've come up with some very sueful proofs about fuel economy (not rigorous proofs, since their methods are not that rigorous), some safety issues, etc. I was very surprised, for instance, when they showed that water does stop large calliber bullets fired at close range (the ammo breaks up on impact with the water surface)

I do think, however, that these bullies do this with intent -- in other words, even if they do have some sort of brain malfunction, they could act against it using their free will, and this study does not give any moral excuse to bullying.

As a victim of too many bullies, I won't disagree. However, bullying by children is very common, and children are not that good at asserting their own will over theri desires, especially young children. So it's useful to know why bullies are bullies and to seek some form of effective dissuasion.

[K-Mac]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...14&email=wn

Related National Geographic article. It will be interesting to see what kinds of treatments they come up with for these people. This is a scary disorder...people enjoying others' suffering...ick!

[Steve D'Ippolito]

More likely, Kelly, they will *recruit* at least some of these people. Hey, why not turn their tendencies in a "useful" direction, against people who want to live their own lives without "help" from their "betters"?

[~Sophia~]

I do think, however, that these bullies do this with intent -- in other words, even if they do have some sort of brain malfunction, they could act against it using their free will, and this study does not give any moral excuse to bullying.

A common problem with many such studies is the fact that they ignore people's ideas and how they influence how we process input. The go from stimulation --> brain activity directly and in the absence of certain response they proclaim malfunction - in this case the conduct disorder.

My brain may react very differently to a particular situation than a brain of a person who has very different moral values. This may not be a biological malfunction but a conceptual malfunction.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

Another aspect of it--which I suspect they controlled for--is that even a non-thug might take pleasure in seeing Osama Bin Laden go through some pain....

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

My brain may react very differently to a particular situation than a brain of a person who has very different moral values. This may not be a biological malfunction but a conceptual malfunction.

I agree that it might come about due to learned behavior. For example, take Ellsworth Toohey and the pleasure he took in ruining his neighbor's suit -- did he do that because he had a brain malfunction or did he do it because of the ideas he held? Clearly, Miss Rand meant it as learned and volitional behavior. I don't think the studies show that these types of behaviors are due to brain mis-wiring or brain malfunctioning so much as confirming that bullies take pleasure in tormenting others. Some of these studies basically implicitly deny that a person has a consciousness and has free will; they are treated like biological robots doing what their brains are programmed to do, rather than taking the approach that if a potential bully is permitted to get away with tormenting, he might learn to enjoy it, and thus would be reaffirming his choice to torment. I can see it now, some bully punches out a classmate, and the bully is given medication instead of punishment.

[dadmonson]

Do you all think that words can hurt? I think that words can sting emotionally.

I'm willing to debate.

Edited November 15, 2008 by dadmonson

[musenji]

This is a scary disorder...people enjoying others' suffering...ick!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

Another aspect of it--which I suspect they controlled for--is that even a non-thug might take pleasure in seeing Osama Bin Laden go through some pain....

Or to keep it in the terms of this study, even a non-thug might take pleasure in seeing one of the bullies go through some pain, after seeing the bully pick on a kid.

Along with Thomas and Sophia, I'd like to add that the mental always IS, in some respect, biological, even if we haven't discovered exactly how. To hold a different idea in one's mind IS to have a different arrangement of brain molecules. Therefore I posit that the error these folks are making isn't that it's biological when maybe it's "just conceptual", but rather that the biological may also be conceptual, and that changing one's concepts is changing one's biology.

It looks like this was implicit in what you were both saying, but I wanted to make it explicit.

[JMeganSnow]

I guess it is true to some extent that most scientists just don't operate on the common sense level. They have to see how the brain lights up under an MRI in order to draw a conclusion about someone's mental state.

And a good thing, too, otherwise our "common sense" scientists would still be insisting that the earth is flat. It's not mental states they're recording, they are looking at and for physical *signs* of that mental state.

I find it more likely that being a bully is what causes the pleasure centers to fire rather than the other way around--correlation is not causation. Many people grow out of it. There's a limit to the conclusions you can get from just one study.

Do you all think that words can hurt? I think that words can sting emotionally.

I'm willing to debate.

Sure they can hurt. But they cannot hurt you unless you let them.

Edit: Oh good grief, every one of my points has already been made by someone else. NEVER MIND!!

Edited November 16, 2008 by JMeganSnow

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

And a good thing, too, otherwise our "common sense" scientists would still be insisting that the earth is flat. It's not mental states they're recording, they are looking at and for physical *signs* of that mental state.

By "common sense" I did not mean what is commonly held to be true, but rather conclusions logically based on observations. In other words, one can observe the glee with which bullies torment others and logically come to the conclusion that they are enjoying it. The scientists in that article had a false premise, that bullies do not have empathy and therefor cannot project the pain they are inflicting on others, so that they are projected as doing what they do not out of a corrupted sense of pleasure, but rather in the sense that they don't feel the pain they are inflicting. But it was obvious to me as a child and even as an adult that bullies really enjoy tormenting others. I think the idea that they do not enjoy it, because such an idea is monstrous, is a rationalization to cover up the negative emotion one would have at understanding that they really do enjoy it.

As to the world having once thought to be flat, that was a misunderstanding or an inference that was projected from observation. We do not directly perceive that the world is flat. We cannot observe whether the world is round or flat, except from space. But we can directly observe the glee bullies taken in being bullies.

As to the relationship between mind and brain, I agree that one's ideas do influence the way the brain operates. In other words, the neural network changes depending on how one thinks, in a similar sense that one grows more muscles the more one exercises. If one gets accustomed to thinking a certain way, those neural pathways are strengthened. If someone continually acts on emotions rather than thoughts, then the prefrontal cortex is not going to be firing as much as it does in a thinker.

[JMeganSnow]

By "common sense" I did not mean what is commonly held to be true, but rather conclusions logically based on observations. In other words, one can observe the glee with which bullies torment others and logically come to the conclusion that they are enjoying it.

No, you *infer* that they're enjoying it, just as early thinkers inferred that the world was flat. People *often* project emotional states that they don't feel, and feel emotional states that they don't project.

It's been *my* observation that most bullies live in a state of chronic anxiety and insecurity, and lashing out at other people is their way of feeling briefly powerful and in control. For them, pleasure is simply a relief from constant pain.

[D'kian]

As to the world having once thought to be flat, that was a misunderstanding or an inference that was projected from observation. We do not directly perceive that the world is flat. We cannot observe whether the world is round or flat, except from space. But we can directly observe the glee bullies taken in being bullies.

Actually you can perceive the world as flat. In fact you do nearly every day. Stand in a wide open field, like a golf course, and the world looks flat, with the vault of the sky reaching down to the horizon.

You can also make simple observations that will allow you to deduce it is round. One, the Earth's shadow projected on the Moon is always the same shape, which is consistent with the shadow cast by a sphere. Two, if you look at a departing ship, you will notice the hull disappears from view before the mast does, again in consistency to an object traveling on the surface of a sphere. Three, if you observe the shadows cast by objects in two different places separated by some miles at the same time, you'll see they differ in shape (because the sun strikes at a different angle), which is what you'd expect from a spherical world. In fact, with a little knowledge of trigonometry and by measuring the angles involved in the last example, you can measure the circumference of the Earth; the ancient Greeks in fact did this thousands of years ago.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

It's been *my* observation that most bullies live in a state of chronic anxiety and insecurity, and lashing out at other people is their way of feeling briefly powerful and in control. For them, pleasure is simply a relief from constant pain.

I definitely agree with this -- bullies get a short-term pleasure from their bullying. Psychologically, one can say that due to their chronic state of insecurity, seeing pain in others confirms their state of anxiety -- i.e. it reaffirms their general conclusion that life is hell anyhow, as in, "See it happens to everyone." Because I am convinced that part of what motivates bullies is to induce that state of chronic anxiety in others. And that state of chronic anxiety in bullies is brought about by their refusal to think long-term, and because they believe that power over others is the only sure way of having control over reality -- the only part of reality that they can control, others through bullying. They are the worst type of second-handers, living off of inducing pain in others to temporarily relieve their impending sense of doom. Of course, if you do go around bullying others, that impending sense of doom is appropriate, because some day one of those victims is going to turn around on you and give you what you justly deserve. So, while they do feel pleasure, it is not the same as happiness as understood by Objectivism.

[dadmonson]

And a good thing, too, otherwise our "common sense" scientists would still be insisting that the earth is flat. It's not mental states they're recording, they are looking at and for physical *signs* of that mental state.

I find it more likely that being a bully is what causes the pleasure centers to fire rather than the other way around--correlation is not causation. Many people grow out of it. There's a limit to the conclusions you can get from just one study.

Sure they can hurt. But they cannot hurt you unless you let them.

Edit: Oh good grief, every one of my points has already been made by someone else. NEVER MIND!!

Megan what advice would you give to a girl who says her sister has been bullying her and she is the reason for all her problems...

Her: God, I hate that everyone thinks my sister is soooo wonderful and perfect. If they really knew her, I don't think they would like her so much. I swear, it's only because she has a pretty face, that people like. But if your heart is cold as ice, it shouldn't matter how beautiful you are.

Arrrgh.... I seriously just wants to tell everyone what a she is. That she's the reason why I want to end my life.

I hate her. I seriously do. If she died tomorrow, I wouldn't care.

interloper: WOW, what did your sister do?

Her: Since I was a little girl, she has told me how useless I am. How fat I am, how ugly I am, and that I will never be as good as her. Everytime she gets a chance, she humiliates me.

I remember some years ago when we it was summer. We were at the beach, in our bathing suits. And she kept telling me, that I was fat, and that I had a big belly, like the children in Africa, who doens't have enough food, so their bellies are swollen.

When I came home from my boarding school, and I felt like my only home was gone, she lied to me and said that our mom had told her, that she was so tired of me, and wished that I had stayed at my school.

It is hard to explain, exactly what she has done. But she is the reason, why I feel so uselless. Why I feel like the biggest loser in the world. Why I'm not good at making friends, because I'm afraid they won't like me. Why my life, is one big mess.

I think the bully is getting too much blame here, don't you think?

Edited December 7, 2008 by dadmonson

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

I think the bully is getting too much blame here, don't you think?

Well, you addressed that to Megan, but in my experience it is possible for bullying to hurt your psychologically -- i.e. their constant snubs and chides can get into one's subconscious, making it very difficult to fight, leading to decreases in self-esteem. And I think the adage of "just ignore them" is insufficient in preventing this from happening. I think the more you put up with it, the worse it will become. It's like Christianity versus Objectivism; the Christian will say turn the other cheek, an Objectivist will say fight for your values, and self-esteem is one of your fundamental values. So, if someone is constantly bullying you, get them out of your life. If they are constantly coming up to you, push them away with certitude, since harassment is the initiation of force. I'm not saying necessarily to pick a fight with them, but the freedom of association means that you can prevent them from being in your life. If it is a sibling and one can't yet move out, then fight back by telling them to get away from you and to leave you alone. How far it escalates after that depends on if the bully back down or not. You have the right to live your life without being taunted and harassed; apply that principle appropriately in your life.

For dealing with the psychological harm, one has to be very honest with oneself and re-assess one's actual worth independent of what anyone tells you; and I think this is one reason independence is a virtue, and it is something that has to be learned while becoming an adult.

[JMeganSnow]

Well, you addressed that to Megan, but in my experience it is possible for bullying to hurt your psychologically -- i.e. their constant snubs and chides can get into one's subconscious, making it very difficult to fight, leading to decreases in self-esteem. And I think the adage of "just ignore them" is insufficient in preventing this from happening. I think the more you put up with it, the worse it will become.

I disagree with this in a sense, because I know a number of people who had *much* worse treatment than I did in high school but came out without the psychological bruising.

It's not the bully that is the problem, it is *your method of dealing with it* that's the problem. If you are other-focused on a psychological level as a matter of habit, you can't "just ignore them" because you internalize EVERYTHING that EVERYONE says about you. TRYING to ignore them under those circumstances just makes you feel powerless and reinforces the feelings of inferiority/worthlessness.

A self-focused person has no problem with bullies because they don't even perceive comments like that *as* bullying, they just feel baffled that anyone would even bother to say something so pointless. They also tend to say "hurtful" things completely by accident when their opinion is solicited, like me. One of my coworkers came to work with a brand-new pair of green and yellow shoes on, and when they were drawn to my attention (like I notice people's shoes!) I said, "Oh, they're the BP shoes!". He apparently thought this was insulting, but I was like, what's wrong with BP? Their logo is green and yellow, the shoes are green and yellow, that doesn't make them BAD SHOES, just COLORFUL.

So, no, that girl's sister is not "ruining her life", but the solution isn't to confront the sister or "fight for your values", it's to realize that you're taking someone else's opinion way too damn seriously--someone whose judgment you obviously don't respect, at that--instead of using your own independent judgment and being proud of it!

It's harder to reorganize your own psychology, but in the long run it's really rewarding.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

So, no, that girl's sister is not "ruining her life", but the solution isn't to confront the sister or "fight for your values", it's to realize that you're taking someone else's opinion way too damn seriously--someone whose judgment you obviously don't respect, at that--instead of using your own independent judgment and being proud of it!

I agree that one ought to be focused on one's own achievements and self-worth over that of someone constantly trying to talk you down. Taking bullies too seriously, in the way that Megan talks about, is a type of second-handedness. However, being a first-hander and self-confident does not mean putting up with their snide remarks that are intended to be hurtful. My advise, rather than just letting it slide off, is to get them out of your life. They are not good for you and it is not good for you to have to continually ignore them -- which could become evasiveness. One ought not have to ignore things around one, but rather take delight in your world and your view of it, so long as one is rational and working towards obtaining one's values. One ought to surround oneself with one's values, and get rid of the non-values or the disvalues. And bullies are definitely a disvalue in that their taunts and harassments are good for nothing; they are not even a value in the sense of making you stronger so it doesn't hurt so much, leading to a kind of callousness developing in oneself when it comes to responding to positive values. Keep those chiding your desire to have a wonderful life out of your life, since there is no need whatsoever in letting them remain in your life.

[JMeganSnow]

However, being a first-hander and self-confident does not mean putting up with their snide remarks that are intended to be hurtful. My advise, rather than just letting it slide off, is to get them out of your life.

Oh, sure, and as you get older and more experienced you develop an entire *arsenal* of tools for dealing with objectionable people, but these are all down at the tactical level and I find it's better to comprehend the strategic level before you start dealing with the tactical stuff. Besides, it's hard to prescribe tactics because it depends a lot on the situation.

One of my favorite tactics is to address the bully's comments as though they are Jesus bringing the Word and you are just going to rush out and adopt all of their suggestions . . . can I call you DADOO?! etc. It is AMAZINGLY off-putting when they discover that not only have they failed to elicit an angry reaction, now they have a huge flabby woman flinging herself at them and demanding to get their face tattooed on her ass.

Of course, I haven't had to deal with this stuff since high school. Either the bullies have gotten a *lot* more subtle or my strategy of not giving a crap is working like a charm.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

Thomas,

In school (where most people are first exposed to bullying) one cannot remove the bully from your life; you are imprisoned with them 6-7 hours a day, five days a week. (For that matter God help you if you are ever in prison--and since there IS no God, that narrows it down....)

You are left with: 1) ignore them--in which case they will undoubtedly escalate until you cannot ignore them 2) hope an adult will deal with them (fat chance and if they do it's probably worse; you are liable to be waylaid off school grounds) or 3) lash out and stomp their guts out.

Oh, and I forgot:

4) I do know of one class genius (Isaac Asimov) who admitted to doing the homework of the biggest guy in class, and thereby buying protection.

[Alfa]

Of course, I haven't had to deal with this stuff since high school. Either the bullies have gotten a *lot* more subtle or my strategy of not giving a crap is working like a charm.

I think there's a similar behaviour in the adult world, which is demonstrating, or trying to demonstrate, superiority and higher social status. I'm reffering to people who perhaps will pat you on the head and call you "kiddo" or generally act cocky and dominating just to show how "inferior" you are.

Luckily such people are easy to deal with. My general response is to just look them in the eye with a little "hmmm" and then turn my attention to someone else, just ignoring the tough guy. A simple "shut up" can also be very effective. If they get physical(for example the pat on the head, or if you shake hands and they elbow you or whatever) then you just call them on it.

As a woman though I suspect you have noticed the same kind of behaviour in a different way. Usually these are the same guys that wont really care and listen to what you say because they will just give the final word to any discussion or argument.

You are left with: 1) ignore them--in which case they will undoubtedly escalate until you cannot ignore them 2) hope an adult will deal with them (fat chance and if they do it's probably worse; you are liable to be waylaid off school grounds) or 3) lash out and stomp their guts out.

I have applied #3 effectively against bullies in the past. I hate having to resort to violence but in some situations it just has to be done. However, it's not a viable option in all situations and all you can really do is to avoid the bullies.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

Um, that's assuming you *can* avoid them.

I bailed out on a (non-Objectivist) forum I used to belong to because there was a person who simply would not leave me alone, and I knew ignoring them would do no good. Not a bully but a pot-stirrer who pokes at people to get a reaction. So ignoring in that case just leads to escalation. Instead of being annoyed, you end up hopping up and down, so mad you are radiating in ultraviolet when they finally do something you cannot ignore. Having finally gotten sick and tired of being fuming mad at this person every two months or so, my *only* option in this case was to leave the forum, just like that. Fortunately I had the option. Like I said not a bully, but the dynamic was similar; a person you can't only ignore and have it be effective.

Tactic 5, useable ONLY the first time is to respond in a very low key way in a way that implies that you could crush this bully like a bug if they really got your attention.

[Alfa]

You're right, unfortunately it's not always possible to avoid them. Many times too, like you described, bullies are more than willing to go out of their way just to bother you.

I think the best way would be if schools(and in some cases the police) had very firm policies against bullying. If they can't behave they should be thrown out of school and/or put in jail.

I don't know how the situation is in America but where I live this is not likely to ever happen. Here the teachers or principals will have a nice little chat with the bullies telling them to be nicer to the other kids. Of course the poor kid who did the right thing by alerting the teachers will pay for that mistake later... and then the police...

We had an incident here in the media just recently with a mentally challenged kid who was regularly assaulted by bullies. His father had filed several reports on assault to the police, but nothing happened. The story had a rather tragic ending with the father, defending his son, killing one of the bullies with a shotgun. The bullies had tried to assault them with bats, boards and whatnot, but the father was still convicted for killing one of them(though it was a very mild sentence, but sill...).

No wonder bullies are a problem when you have public schools and an impotent law enforcement, and not to mention a society where people feel sorry for the criminals.

---

Regarding 'Tactic 5' I think it's a very good way to avoid trouble. I have found that the key here is to have it very clear in your mind where the line goes. One should treat others kindly, justly and respectfully(unless they deserve otherwise) and expect the same treatment back. When treated unjustly there should be a clear line that says "don't tread on me!", and if someone tries to cross that line you make it clear that you will not accept it. This is best done in a calm, low key, non-threatening and non-agressive way. It's usually enough to make it clear that "don't go there" and let them think about what it really means.

The same tactic works with people who are just trying to pick a fight. Often such people will first bother you just to combat their own insecurities, sort of looking for an answer to the question "can I take this guy out or not?". A bad way of dealing with that is to try and convince him that first you will beat him up, and then his mother... a better way is to just state that "you don't want to fight with me", "why?", "let's not find out". Their own insecurities will probably help them think up the worst possible scenario.

Works pretty well in both threatening and non-threatening situations.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

In school (where most people are first exposed to bullying) one cannot remove the bully from your life; you are imprisoned with them 6-7 hours a day, five days a week.

That is one of the biggest problems with modern state run schools, where bullying is almost institutionalized due to the lack of a proper response from the teachers. Because I was Catholic at the time, I never picked a fight with them, but found other more subtle ways of dealing with them, using their ignorance against them. For example, one day this bully was cheating off of me, I knew it and so did the teacher, but she wouldn't move him. So, I let him cheat off me and gave him all the wrong answers. After he turned in his paper, I went back and gave myself an A. He was floored in how he got an F, even though he was cheating off the smartest guy in the class. When confronted in the hall later, I told him he might need glasses

Other times, I would act like I was doing something very dangerous to spook them away from me. Like during a physics experiment, I told the interlopers that we were dealing with dynamite tape and that they had better stand back. I let the device go, which made a load noise, and they took off running away down the hall

So, no, one doesn't have to resort to violence, though in retrospect I wish I had been more self-assertive about protecting my values. After becoming an Objectivist I am more that way, though I haven't been bothered much.

A few years ago, when I was being stalked and harassed, I couldn't pin-point who they were, and thus couldn't effectively go to the police or take personal action against them. I did eventually just try to get away from them, but they followed me for hundreds of miles. I became very frightened, but eventually got so angry at them that I was willing to fight them, if necessary. I did notice that they were cowards all the way, never identifying themselves to me. It was a strange cold war type of situation, neither side dealing in blows to each other. But I would definitely like to find out who they were and bring them to justice.

[JMeganSnow]

As a woman though I suspect you have noticed the same kind of behaviour in a different way. Usually these are the same guys that wont really care and listen to what you say because they will just give the final word to any discussion or argument.

To be honest, no, I really haven't except, maybe, from my dad and a couple of real social retards my first year in college, but most guys of my acquaintance stop doing this sort of thing very quickly when they realize that a.) they'd like to get laid sometime in the next century and b.) the women are Not Amused. The real bullies I've encountered are pretty much exclusively female, which requires an entire new set of tactics because aggressive women are MUCH harder to get around than men. A man will generally back down at some point for fear of an ass-whupping. Women don't fear ass-whupping because we KNOW what will happen to you if you even TRY. That, and female bullies *never* hit you in *any* way that leaves evidence, it all takes place invisibly.

I'm sure this doesn't pertain everywhere, it really just depends on which gender has The Power in a given social setup. For the most part I've always lived and operated in places where women very definitely had The Power--the guys who might be bullies if the men had The Power instead are lovable twerps and easily managed. Since they are insecure they usually attach themselves to an *independent* female in the social structure--the bullies scare them but the independents can protect them because the independent women have more Status than men do and they are also themselves protected by the rule that direct assaults on other women are Not Permissible. Secure *men* in this setup are completely free agents and no one messes with them, which is by and large why I prefer social setups where women have The Power to ones where men have The Power even though women are a lot more vicious than men are. Due to the self-inflicted rules that govern female relationships, it's the only situation I've seen where ANYONE is left alone on principle. Independent *women* are viciously squashed either way. WE only do well when Rational People have The Power, as in totally voluntary associations like this forum.

The only real way I've ever found to deal with female bullies is to either become a yes-woman (not recommended or tolerable to anyone with even half a brain) or place yourself outside their social web by voluntarily becoming an odd sort of social pariah or Untouchable. You can have your own social network and friends among the other Untouchables or the less-consistent Yes-women willing to risk a moderate amount of censure. The worst thing that ever happens is the bullies attempting the occasional assault when they think they can call you out for breaking The Rules (you forgot to hang up your jacket, you didn't wash your hands, you made so-and-so Feel Bad, whatever), but even this doesn't work so well when you don't give a fig about 99% of The Rules. Yes, occasionally they can still get you if you care about things like doing your work well, but for the most part you're immune. The only time you'll get it bad is when an Untouchable is *forced* by circumstances into the bullies' social network, such as a nerdy chick trying to join the cheerleading squad (to use a common example).

There are lots of exceptions and special cases, I'm sure, but that's the general dynamic as far as I can tell. You can thank my year spent in the tissue bank pressure cooker for that analysis.