Bullies Enjoy Hurting Others

[themadkat]

That implies that your boyfriend didn't see anything wrong prior to the taking of the camera, on the BMW driver's part, especially his use of his gun.

If taking the camera was wrong, then so too was taking the keys even if they were left down the road.

Assuming the incident wasn't staged, if pulling the gun was not wrong (in your boyfriend's view), what would have been the right thing to have done after the armed confrontation? What would you, or especially your boyfriend, have done were you the ones in the BMW, again, after the armed, gun vs. bat, confrontation?

Edited for clarity.

No, neither of us saw anything wrong on the BMW driver's part up to that point. I mean, here they are, pulled over in a remote dead-end location, and these two dudes come over with baseball bats, presumably to smash up either the car or the occupants or both. I think he was entirely justified in pulling a gun to protect himself, his companion, and his property. I don't think it was unjustified for him to take the keys either, since the hillbillies' ability to follow after him was part of the continuing threat, and temporarily separating them from their keys neutralized that threat.

The reason, as my boyfriend put it, that they couldn't just walk off with the camera is because you can't take someone's property just because you have them over a barrel, even if they're stupid rednecks. It's probably illegal. His point was more that the guy should have blurred out his face on the video, though, so he couldn't be arrested for it.

What would we have done if we had the rednecks at gunpoint after they'd been harassing us? Probably the most humiliating things we could think of, offhand, which I shall not detail here LOL Also could have played a fun game of "Dance, sucker!"

[K-Mac]

Yeah, taking the camera was great, but probably not legal. I would've held them at gunpoint until the police arrived and suggested the police collect it as evidence, then filed charges.

Furthermore, being a native Texan, I'm not sure why those guys thought they were so tough in their Toyota pick up truck. Real Texans drive Ford trucks.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

I heard back from my Texas lawyer friend, but he doesn't specialize in uses of deadly force, so he'd rather not make a public comment on it, since he doesn't want to give mis-information on the law.

There is a "duty to retreat" in the Texas law regarding non-deadly force situations(especially for those carrying a weapon legally), but I have no idea how far one is supposed to retreat by law before drawing a line in the sand and saying, "This far and no further!" Basically, I have been told that one is supposed to ignore them or call the police. What the law doesn't want to happen is for there to be pitched gun battles in the streets. While I do agree that one ought to be civilized, in principle, the one doing the harassing is the one not being civil.

[Trebor]

The reason, as my boyfriend put it, that they couldn't just walk off with the camera is because you can't take someone's property just because you have them over a barrel, even if they're stupid rednecks. It's probably illegal. His point was more that the guy should have blurred out his face on the video, though, so he couldn't be arrested for it.

Ideally, the two in the BMW would have perhaps called the police, and in short order the police would have arrived on he scene and dealt with the situation.

Happily, the incident ended as it did and no one was seriously injured, and we get to see a couple of thugs get their just deserts and consider and discuss the relatively minor issues of whether or not taking the camera was legal or illegal, moral or immoral, etc., and not learn of the incident via the six o'clock news reporting a bloody road rage incident.

Regardless of what might have happened or what should have happened before the final confrontation, it ends up with the confrontation in a desolated area at the end of a dead end road.

There are no do-overs in such circumstances. You do the best that you can, and every choice you make closes off certain options and new ones unfold. A mistake can cost you your life, can lead to the death or serious injury of others.

I agree that taking the keys was justified; it was a matter of ensuring that they would not be chased anymore. However, some people have spare keys with them or hidden on their vehicle, so even taking the keys didn't guarantee that the chase was over.

As to the camera, they knew that there was some video recording of the incident. Were they to have left without the camera, there might have been enough on the video to identify them and their car, and the two in the truck, especially angered after the confrontation, might have been able to hunt them down and cause them further harm.

If instead of taking the camera, they took the memory card or the tape, whatever the media the camera used for recording, that too would be theft.

At best then, to avoid theft, they could have erased the video. But wouldn't that too be an illegal destruction of property, in principle? As well, would erasing the video ensure that the video was unretrievable?

After the fact, now that the video has been posted online to YouTube, it seems probable that the two in the truck will learn of it. If they want the camera back, they can ask for it. If the two in the BMW think they should, they can send it back to them. If that's not good enough, then the two in the truck have evidence to take legal action. I doubt that they would; I assume that they wouldn't want to risk the legal consequences for their own actions.

I certainly see that the taking of the camera is questionable. In the context, it seems a minor issue. We do not see what would have happened, what property damage or injuries the couple in the BMW would have suffered.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Trebor

[Trebor]

I heard back from my Texas lawyer friend, but he doesn't specialize in uses of deadly force, so he'd rather not make a public comment on it, since he doesn't want to give mis-information on the law.

There is a "duty to retreat" in the Texas law regarding non-deadly force situations(especially for those carrying a weapon legally), but I have no idea how far one is supposed to retreat by law before drawing a line in the sand and saying, "This far and no further!" Basically, I have been told that one is supposed to ignore them or call the police. What the law doesn't want to happen is for there to be pitched gun battles in the streets. While I do agree that one ought to be civilized, in principle, the one doing the harassing is the one not being civil.

Thank you for the information. Understandable that your friend wouldn't want to comment.

I agree with your comments re the "duty to retreat."

Edited June 29, 2009 by Trebor