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Dealing with Loneliness

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I love being alone – it enriches my life, makes me feel positive, allows me to control the things I like to do and lets me de clutter and reflect ….

...

I have written this all down to get it off my chest…many times you hear once you get it out you feel better at the moment I don’t and although I feel like crying (which I normally would) my emotions are held back due to the drugs.

Does anyone have words of wisdom or knows a way to give me a good kick up the backside to get me moving into the right direction?

I'm curious if you are getting counseling with the anti depressants. If not I would recommend it. Drugs long term success rate in dealing with depression without counseling is about zero.

I don't think there are any magic words to help you. Ultimately you have to choose what meaning and value to give your life. You have to choose to act against how you feel when what you think diverges from it. You have to find value in your life because no one else can in any way that really matters. You have to live for yourself to actually be a benefit to those around you. Nothing I or anyone else can say could do anything more then provide a temporary external motivation. Ultimately your life is your own; your responsibility; your credit or your regret. I hate to sound like a Nike add, but if you just do what you think you should, then the feelings will eventually fall into place. So just do it.

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I love being alone[...]

From what you've told us it seems more like you love certain aspects of being alone, but that you are dearly missing the value of having friends and people around you. Perhaps it's just the simplicity of things, being safe and alone in your own little world with only yourself to worry about. Dealing with other people is demanding... atleast for some of us it is, so sometimes it may just seem a lot easier to avoid it. Finding the right kind of people can be of tremendous value though, so it's worth the effort.

I think the first place for you to start is to look at how you value yourself and what is causing your low self-esteem.

Ask yourself what do you like about yourself, and why do you like that. Find out the qualities and virtues that you have, and makes sure they are real, solid and rational things. I think it's important that they are real qualities and that you understand them. Otherwise it easily becomes some kind of empty self-affirmation, and that does not work because at some level you will know that it's not real and you're telling yourself those things just to feel better. Lying to yourself does not work, especially not for intelligent people.

I know this can be difficult, especially for someone who is depressed because in that mental state you tend to focus on the negatives. Take your time and think about it, and while you're at it you can also think about new qualities and virtues you would like to develop - then make an effort to do so.

Then consider your bad sides. I'm not asking you to tear yourself down; keep in mind that you are just honsetly identifying flaws that you will make sure to correct. Having flaws does not make you a bad person, you should instead take pride in being honest about them so that you can fix them. Then you can also take pride in the improvements you are making. It's like with any other achievment, but be sure to actually pat yourself on the back and say what a good job you have done. A very common mistake is to not take proper credit for the good things you have done, and if you go about telling yourself "oh, that's just nothing..." about all the achievments you make, then it's difficult to build any self-esteem. Never take your own achievments too lightly.

I suspect you will have a lot to work on and the road may feel long and hopeles at times, but make a commitment to yourself that you will fix whatever it is that needs to be fixed, and take comfort in the fact that you are going in the right direction.

A true and honest evaluation of yourself is also an important thing to have when dealing with others. If you have that it's not going to matter so much what others may think. The important thing is what you think. Learn to trust your judgement. Others may give you valuable input, in which case you should recognize that, but it is ultimately what you think that matters.

Following this line of reasoning there is also a little "trick" that I like to use myself. Over the years I have developed a fair amount of confidence and self-esteem, but i've never been good at dealing with people. I just find it a little difficult in different ways. The trick, which is not much of a trick really, is to just give yourself permission to be yourself. It sound silly but it works well. When you feel anxious and nervous, just kick back, relax take a few deep breaths and give yourself permission to do and say whatever the hell you want. If you screw up and say something stupid you can fix that later by either clarifying what you meant or by recognizing that you made a mistake and said something stupid. It's a lot easier when you're not making big deals out of such things. Besides, it's important to understand that it's allright to be you. A lot of people are nervous and anxious because in some way or another, and for no good reason, they have accepted that there's something wrong with themselves and therefore hold back when dealing with others. So, just try to relax and throw that BS out the window.

And, btw, if you do that, i'll bet you'll notice a lot of people responding positively to you. I doesnt really matter if they think you are strange, odd or whatever. In general, people love dealing with others who seem natural and share their personality and character. I'm sure you have met a lot of people like that, people who may perhaps seem a bit "different" but you just think; "hey, what a great guy that is!".

Anyway, I hope I have given some helfull advice here. :dough:

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I don't think there are any magic words to help you. Ultimately you have to choose what meaning and value to give your life. You have to choose to act against how you feel when what you think diverges from it. You have to find value in your life because no one else can in any way that really matters. You have to live for yourself to actually be a benefit to those around you. Nothing I or anyone else can say could do anything more then provide a temporary external motivation. Ultimately your life is your own; your responsibility; your credit or your regret. I hate to sound like a Nike add, but if you just do what you think you should, then the feelings will eventually fall into place. So just do it.

You are right that it's ultimately about "just" doing it. It's about facing whatever fears are holding you back and taking that first step, and then another one, and then... Noone can make that decision for you, it's up to you and only you. It may seem tough, but take comfort in the fact that you are in control of your life.

However, I think there are a lot of things that can be said which can help make a person ready to do that. It's not only about giving external motivation, which really is not a bad thing here, but also about helping them find their own motivation.

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I have social anxiety and a lot of what you have written is familiar to me, have you considered that you may have a social phobia? I can recommend to you a self-help book called "Overcoming Social Anxiety and Shyness" by Gillian Butler. This book has helped me change my thinking, my behaviour and reduce my self-consciousness, it has also taught me how to be more assertive and how to relax more. I am by no means out of the woods yet but at least I know the way out now. I recommend looking on Amazon for this book and using the 'look inside' function to browse the contents. In the meantime you mustn't think that your state of mind is permanent because if you do have social anxiety then you will be looking at the world as if through distorted glass; your assumptions and underlying beliefs will give you a negative outlook that will colour your thoughts and feelings.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Mayhem, I've experienced many of the same thoughts and emotions as you mentioned in your post for a great deal of my life (I believe as far back as 5th grade). I don't know the specifics of your situation so I'll limit this thread to my personal experiences with it. Lately, for the past year or so, since I discovered Objectivism, I've dedicated a considerable amount of my time to figuring out the solution to this problem. I've outlined a few key concepts which have played a pivotal role in my improvement.

First of all, I want to say that I don't agree with modern psychologists who claim that these conditions are physiological. I do agree that some people have different chemical balances in their brain than others, but this is not the cause of anxieties and depressions. All evidence has pointed me in the direction that thoughts cause emotions and that brain chemicals are merely catalysts in this process. My first objective was to figure out what thoughts were causing these desires to distance myself from others. After rereading a chapter in Rand's Philosophy: who needs it? it dawned on me. It's too long to quote so I'll summarize it in my own words. It's in the chapter, Selfishness Without a Self in the second to last paragraph if you want to read it. She states that some of history's greatest minds have "escaped" into the physical sciences because of their inability to deal with reality. That they spend their time in a world where there is order and are capable of understanding it (e.g. physics, mathematics) instead of in a world of unknowable chaos (e.g. a world where some irrational men exist).

Once this sunk into my mind I realized where my desire to detach myself from other people came from: my not-knowing how to deal with them. This non-information has caused me to rationalize almost every reason why I shouldn't actively pursue relationships with others. But what I've recently realized is that I wanted to meet people, I wanted to have simple conversations occasionally with people, I just didn't know how to deal with "awkward silences" for example. What I've come to realize is that what I call the "spiritual" realm has order and is knowable just like the physical world. That being honest, for example, yields the same result as when you let an apple fall from your hand.

I know it sounds like such a simple concept, and something that should come easy to most Objectivists, but it's something I haven't considered until recently. This is why Galt speaks with such calm and confidence even when he's impending a possible torturous death at the top of the Wayne Falkland building: he understands what's caused him to be there and what to do. As far as how to act in certain situations, I've found the fundamental principles of Objectivism to be sound. My affirmation of these principles has been through trial and error through personal experience, and I encourage you to do the same. I hope this has been helpful to you Mayhem, as its been for me writing it. I know how difficult this can be and I wish you success. I would also like to hear your thoughts when you have a chance.

Edited by JMeganSnow
Paragraph breaks--not just for losers any more
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  • 3 weeks later...
I love being alone – it enriches my life, makes me feel positive, allows me to control the things I like to do and lets me de clutter and reflect ….

But then at times I feel loneliness – actually very frequently. I have family around me (boyfriend & son) and neighbors as well as many people I could reach out to if I wanted to but I don’t. I believe I am inflicting loneliness on myself due to a low self esteem. I have never been able to build up strong lasting friendships due to a fear of inner rejection I believe. I build up bonds with animals & children with no problems but they don’t hurt or judge me….

I often hear people say that I am a lovely person and have people reach out to me but at a certain stage I seem to build up a wall which drives the other person away. If I have problems or want to do something the last thing I will ever do is share it with someone else as I do not want to be a burden to anyone. I will never ever ask for help …

I feel like a social retard and will avoid situations which will bring me in contact with other people…what I am afraid of I don’t know. It is at such a stupid stage that when I open my front door to go somewhere but hear neighbors outside I will quietly close the door again to avoid conversation.

I hate not knowing what to say as well as the awkward silences that you feel have to be filled so easiest is to avoid it all together. I am terrified to approach people in case they think ‘oh my god’ - I don’t want to push myself on someone who doesn’t want to talk to me.

I think I have always been like this…even at primary school I used to cry daily I had no friends when at the same time the doorbell used to go at least 2 times a day with different kids asking if I wanted to play. In high school it was the same…I was the fun outgoing popular girl that got asked to all the parties and events but always felt not good enough or inferior to all others at school. I could get love letters daily and be asked out by guys and still feel absurdly ugly and unwanted.

I guess I always put others first and always will… I don’t want them ever to be disappointed by me or feel let down or think badly of me so I reject them.

Coming to this conclusion is somewhat refreshing but it in no way changes it… how can I change and let people in? How can I be a good friend? How can I be something I have not been my whole life and where do I find this wonderful thing called confidence?

There are times when I think do I really need someone in my life? And I believe mostly that I don’t but then having a feeling of loneliness a lot of the time would prove otherwise.

So there is a difference….being alone is something you can chose to be but loneliness is something that you feel…if I had to sum up loneliness in words it would be: abandonment, rejection, depression, insecurity, anxiety, hopelessness, unworthiness, meaninglessness

Due to my self loathing I get’s bouts of depression and have now been taking anti-depressants for 2 years but I am now coming to the conclusion that these are making things worse. They are completely blocking my natural human emotions – things that used to move me don’t anymore – I can’t remember the last time I really laughed whilst being on these tablets and feeling true joy. So although they are suppressing the feelings of depression I have come to realize over the last year that they are suppressing all emotions. This only helps strengthen my not building relationships and avoiding them.

I have written this all down to get it off my chest…many times you hear once you get it out you feel better at the moment I don’t and although I feel like crying (which I normally would) my emotions are held back due to the drugs.

Does anyone have words of wisdom or knows a way to give me a good kick up the backside to get me moving into the right direction?

Find hobbies or other activities that you can share with others. Go to parties and social gatherings. I had a gf that had the same problems. Her solution was to ditch the meds and jump into the situations that made here feel anxious. I'm no doctor, but that's just my bit of advice. Whatever you do, i hope it works.

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  • 4 months later...

*** Mod's note: Merged with a previous topic. - sN ***

 

I never dreamed I'd be where I am at my age in the past and never a planner my bleak future has caught up with me. I'm not whining but here are some facts.

I'm 58 years old.
I've been on disability for 10 years although I've worked here and there.
I once had a life filled with love, friends, and time for dreams.
I prided myself on keeping in shape and loved exercising - all sports
I loved learning.
I was always a bit of a loner but not lonely and sought out friends when I felt I needed them.
I was always a good friend.
I've had intermittent phases of chronic depression being very sensitive and at times overreactive.

Today I don't have a life. My therapist who tells me he sees hope for a future and has a positive attitude about me is wrong. This old person is still somewhere inside of me but I've succumbed more or less to my life as it is, otherwise, I fear I'd take it, and I don't want to do that. Most of my family is gone, and who I thought were friends going back 30 years, some of whom I thought were true, are gone. Depression and at time suicide ideation tends to do that however, I took great care not to burden these friends who at times were equally miserable. I was always there for them. I was always attractive and when you're younger there's always time to start all over again. It was very easy for me to meet men and possibly form relationships, however now due to not caring about myself as I should, I've become invisible and sometimes I don't care. Sometimes it's OK to be alone and reclusive. At other times, like today, I feel like I'm going out of my mind. The house is quiet as usual, noone to talk to all day, I can't conjure up the motivation to take a walk (I do try) and take small positive steps in my life, but today, I didn't see any use in really getting dressed. So yes, I'm very sad, lonely and depressed. Noone loves me and I don't love anyone, except for my beautiful cats who I would never abandon. They ground me and remind me that that is beauty in the world. Unconditional love is such a wonderful thing to have. I wish I didn't need people.

I wonder why people can't reach out to me instead of vice versa. By the time I get to my therapist's office, I talk SO much because aside from conversations here and there with storeowners or a person I run into, I'm so hungry to communicate. If I did decide to take my life, noone would know it for days, maybe a week. I have nice neighbors, and am as nice to strangers as I possibly can be just to feel better about myself.

I've written enough. Bottom line is that I know longer do the things I used to do when I was younger, yet I'm not really that old, and I look about 10 years younger. This is the first time in my life that I have stopped exercising, and eating things that are fattening (comfort foods) which has put the weight on me..maybe 25 pounds. And I realize that I still do care; not for someone else but for me. I avoid the mirrors but sometimes i accidentally catch a glimpse of the weight I've put on and I can't stand to look at it yet men still seem to want to meet me. I usually push them away. But I care because I have to live with myself, and if I keep on going, I won't be able to.

Some of my loneliness is my fault, but some of it is the lack of observance of people who once were my friends. I've had to let several of them go because of their toxicity, not mine. I still have my pride and refuse to be emotionally abused which at times I feel I am. Today was a particularly bad day. It was sunny and beautiful outside yet I stayed in all day, sleeping, writing, crying, wondering when my breaking point will be.

Thank you for listening.

Edited by softwareNerd
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I wonder why people can't reach out to me instead of vice versa. By the time I get to my therapist's office, I talk SO much because aside from conversations here and there with storeowners or a person I run into, I'm so hungry to communicate. If I did decide to take my life, noone would know it for days, maybe a week. I have nice neighbors, and am as nice to strangers as I possibly can be just to feel better about myself.

I understand what you are saying here, and I understand where you are coming from. This isn't something I have experienced lately, and probably not to the degree that you have. It is hard trying to be extroverted when you may not have the spirit to.

However, here is my suggestion - keep seeking out people. You have to do it, because that is something no one can really do for you. You already know how to use the internet, since you are here, so use that tool to your advantage.

I have worked from home most of the last 4 or 5 years. I am not in the same situation as you - I have a big family. However, I had very few people I could call true friends when we moved half way across the country. After the first year, tired of being lonely for friends, I worked very very hard to start finding some. It was tought at first, because most everyone in TX belongs to a church and their life revolves around it. That is not for us, haha. I went online, and started seeking out people that I thought I might have something in common with.

My first stop was a discussion board where a lot of people that head left my old religion - I got to know a few online, and subsquently in person (we had what was called "ApostaFests" - I even hosted a Xmas one at my house once). For a time, that was okay, but I found I didn't have as much in common with many of them after a while besides being an ex church member. I kept in touch with some, but then kept searching. I found another group (a Freethought Church of all things) - went once and thought, no this isn't for me. Then I found a Humanist group - became friends with a few folks there, and through them, found an Objectivist group in the area. I stopped going to the Humanist group a long time ago, but have made several true friends through the Objectivist group (North Texas Objectivist Society). I also started a Meetup group for recruiters (my profession) and got to meet a lot of great people. Some I became friends with, and others just acquiatnances. Along the way, I also went to a few Atheist Meetups...

Anyway - my point is this: you cannot give up finding friends, but you also cannot forget that YOU have to do the work to find them. I realize it isn't easy, and it can be very exhausting emotionally.

Currently, I am on the search for finding some new people for my 9 year old to meet so she can make some true friends. We home school her, due to some issues she has (Asperger's for example - which makes socialization for her and making and keeping friends tough), I have been working very hard on this. It is one of my short term purposes, because I don't want her to grow up unable to make and keep friends - but more importantly, I also want her to find friends that she has something in common with (shared interests) NOW.

Check out Meetup, yahoo groups - or even here, go to the local forum and see if there is something in your area.

Start small - there is nothing wrong with signing up for a few groups and checking them out and if you don't like the people, not going any more.

You say you enjoy physical activities - see if there is a Meetup in your area where people get together to go hiking, play tennis, etc...what ever you are interested in.

Let's us know how it goes! And hang in there - and keep on doing something for yourself!

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Sometimes it's OK to be alone and reclusive.

Absolutely. My solitude and quietude are at times very hard won and an ongoing fight for me. I'm Dickinsonian like that.

I can't conjure up the motivation to take a walk (I do try) and take small positive steps in my life, but today, I didn't see any use in really getting dressed.

If it wasn't for a court order, I am not sure if I would even leave my place, but I would have to work to support myself, but if I had a check coming in the mail, I wouldn't leave. I have no reason to, unless to go to the market or library (which I rarely go to anymore because of my Kindle 2).

Noone loves me and I don't love anyone,

I don't know if anyone loves me loves me, but I do know that I love, love many things. As Dickinson said, I could not give up the world. No fucking way could I. Too many words I want to read, too many words I want to write.

except for my beautiful cats who I would never abandon. They ground me and remind me that that is beauty in the world.

Yes, they might do that for you,(I'm definately not an animal person) which is great, but I find much beauty in the written word. Do you find beauty elsewhere in the world?

Unconditional love is such a wonderful thing to have.

Conditional love is, to me.

By the time I get to my therapist's office, I talk SO much because aside from conversations here and there with storeowners or a person I run into, I'm so hungry to communicate.

Forums are a great place, at least for me, to get social with others. I'm not interesting in meeting others, just talking, discussing, sharing interests, learning, that's about it. I've never been through therapy, but I would like to get a mental health professional to confirm what I think I am, though, but do not seek any kind of treatment. I like luxuriating in who I am. You posted at this forum, why an Objectivist forum? What you might like with forums, is that age and looks don't really matter at all, it's the content of your posts that do, depending on the forum I guess.

It was sunny and beautiful outside yet I stayed in all day, sleeping, writing, [...]

Whenever I do take time off of working (which I rarely do, in a years span I had only 4 days off) but when I do, I stay at home and write and read, which is what I do nearly all the time anyways, (Kindle 2 reads to me at work during the week) and occasionally come to this forum and/or other ones. I feel like I spend most of my time in the paper world than in the real world, and I don't have a problem with that. Will it be worth all the things I had to do to win my solitude? Will I suddenly look up one day and feel something called "loneliness"? I do not feel that now.

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I never dreamed I'd be where I am at my age in the past and never a planner my bleak future has caught up with me. I'm not whining but here are some facts.

I don't understand. How did you get this way? You mentioned you were on disability, but you also mentioned you can still go on walks and exercise. How bad is your disability? Did you used to have a career? Why did you stop working?

The only way to get your life back on track is to create goals for yourself and move toward them.

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Set some goals for yourself. Here's a couple suggestions.

Body building. Apparently, it's never too late. If you don't like this, investigate sports where it's never too late to compete or at least to achieve something. I know of older people that started climbing and swimming. Exercise as a chore to maintain good health is boring and won't motivate you. It's about finding things in life you like to do, not maintaining a soulless body.

Get one these books and go learn. Treat yourself to a box of coloured pencils and a book that teaches how to use them. Look at this cover, you could be doing this in a few years. You're at an age when it's easier to learn to draw from life because you will not be under the influence of cultural fads.

The point is, there's so many things out there you could be doing. Nevermind others don't love you. Nobody loves me either. Become the person that deserves your love.

Another thing, binging on food brings no comfort. It's a delusion, you know you'll end crying and feeling horrible you did it. Set a daily calorie intake, start a food diary and take note of what you eat. It's what I do. I have ice cream, pizza, biscuits, what I like, but I calculate calories of each portion first and I don't go above a certain number of calories a day.

Edited by Jill
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The point is, there's so many things out there you could be doing. Nevermind others don't love you. Nobody loves me either. Become the person that deserves your love.

:) I'm way more concerned about being able to love and find things to love, to value, than about being loved. I'm happy just with the former two.

Another thing, binging on food brings no comfort. It's a delusion, you know you'll end crying and feeling horrible you did it.

Yes, plus I feel so sleepy after stuffing myself. I don't indulge in food, in the over eating sense of it, much anymore. I have changed my diet a lot, not intentionally doing it to lose weight, though I have been losing some, just because I want to eat better and less, because I can now. Binging on alcohol and drugs - I'm above the influence. I do go on reading binges and writing purges, though :D . Well, once or twice a year I'll get a fifth of Vodka, to drink over 2-3 days or so, but that's it. I don't really like the effects much. I prefer caffeine.

I avoid the mirrors

Not me :thumbsup: .

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Are you an Objectivist or interested in Objectivism? You could always get involved in starting a local club. If not, I'm not sure why you posted this here. It was in the wrong forum as well, so I'm wondering about this.

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Have you talked to your therapist about depression medication? You can reach a point in depression where you no longer feel joy from the activities that help you. That is where medication can give a needed assist. You will still work on the underlying beliefs and attitudes, but medication can bring the uplift needed to address the underlying issues.

Edited by MichaelH
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Yeow, Zip ... that is true always, but cool it a bit. She has a lot to live for, so let's feed her that perspective.

My point, and only point is that she has to stand up and take responsibility for all the things that she acknowledges she does. From reading her post it seems to me that she recognizes the self-destructive nature of her thoughts and actions. That's a nice first step but instead of actually doing something about it she posts here looking for internet psychoanalysis.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, if she has the capacity to realize what it is that she is doing that is destructive than she has the capacity to correct it. In my opinion the only reason she has not is because this avenue is easier. If people like this didn't want to have strangers pronounce judgments on them then they wouldn't treat the internet like the Jerry Springer Show or Dr. Phill.

That's my opinion, she asked I told. Take it for what it's worth.

Signed...

Just another moron on the internet. :lol:

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Juditha, I think there is a lot of great advice here. Find VALUES and start pursuing them. Even if it's small, even if you initially don't want to, get into them and pursue them. Live as a value pursuer and achiever. Paint, write, read, be proactive mentally (and physically) in your own improvement. This is something only you can do. We may be able to help push you a long, but you need the spark within.

Also, try and identify the essential things that you believe you are missing. Write the top two or three (or even one) down, and start chipping away at them and working to achieve them at some level. Come up with strategies to achieve them!

Set up long range goals and work toward them, but at the same time don’t ignore short range pleasures where they are reasonable (movies, snacks, games, etc). They can help bolster your life and get you to the next moment.

Fill your life with life enhancing things and people. Find people who are positive and achievers, because that will give you motivation and inspiration by example. Try and avoid people who are down. They will make you more down.

Btw, if you want to talk to people, I recommend Facebook.com. Setting up an account is free, and you can find all kinds of people to talk to online. You don't have to be lonely in the day and age of the Internet. Granted it's not like real physical contact, but it is good for the soul! There you will find friends, and you can find groups with common interests, e.g. chess players.

In essence, be rational and pursue life enhancing values to make your self happy. Get into the habit of being happy. Even smile to force the issue on yourself.

I wish you the best! :lol:

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It's interesting that after I read the initial post, I thought the same thing as Zip, but I would not have said it that way. After further consideration, I realized, that is exactly how we should say it, rationally and honestly. We shouldn't sugar coat it.

We all have that basic choice to make. If we choose not to live, then we die. If we choose to live, then we must take action to stay alive and thrive. I think Rand said something to that effect in one of the first few essays of Virtue of Selfishness, but I don't recall which one. (Probably "The Objectivist Ethics" based on the following quotes I found in the Lexicon.) If the original poster hasn't read that recently, perhaps it's time to revisit it?

Only a living entity can have goals or can originate them. And it is only a living organism that has the capacity for self-generated, goal-directed action. On the physical level, the functions of all living organisms, from the simplest to the most complex—from the nutritive function in the single cell of an amoeba to the blood circulation in the body of a man—are actions generated by the organism itself and directed to a single goal: the maintenance of the organism’s life.

An organism’s life depends on two factors: the material or fuel which it needs from the outside, from its physical background, and the action of its own body, the action of using that fuel properly. What standard determines what is proper in this context? The standard is the organism’s life, or: that which is required for the organism’s survival.

The Virtue of Selfishness “The Objectivist Ethics,” The Virtue of Selfishness, 16.

In a fundamental sense, stillness is the antithesis of life. Life can be kept in existence only by a constant process of self-sustaining action. The goal of that action, the ultimate value which, to be kept, must be gained through its every moment, is the organism’s life.

The Virtue of Selfishness “The Objectivist Ethics,” The Virtue of Selfishness, 16.

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It's interesting that after I read the initial post, I thought the same thing as Zip, but I would not have said it that way. After further consideration, I realized, that is exactly how we should say it, rationally and honestly. We shouldn't sugar coat it.

Keep in mind there is no sugar coating in my posting.

I agree, at a certain point, sure, you want to state it boldly and to the point, but I wouldn't say that at the outset to someone I don't know. Rather, I think providing a means to the goal is of greatest value. Life isn't always easy and depending on someone's circumstances it can be extremely hard.

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You have two choices in this life. Live or don't.

It's your move.

Zip,

One of my favorite lines or philosophy comes from the movie The Shawshank Redemption where he says either get busy living or get busy dying. I'm stuck but what you said is it in a nutshell.

Juditha

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