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Gulching: Can we create an Atlantis?

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backpacker

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I actually like this idea but the kicker is that they wouldn't let it keep going once the "show" lost the interest of the viewers.

All it would take is the right kinds of clauses in the contract.

The goal of course is to become too big to be stopped. :D Seeing how the Ideal Political System works out the various problems, especially as more people apply to be "on the show" would soon show that it is the way of the future. There'd be no need to stop the Model version, it would prosper on its own motive power.

One of the first people I'd approach to help fund the project would be Richard Branson. He seems the sort to enjoy this kind of thing.

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I agree that scratching together a country is largely a fantasy, but the ideas I mentioned would work for an individual up to maybe a dozen or two people. For most peolpe who were raised in the city and have never chopped wood or been anywhere without bathrooms, gulching is probably a fantasy. However, there was a time when your average fellow (like my dad) could hunt, fish, fix cars, build houses, and figure stuff out. Being a year away from a degree in mechanical engineering (Go Bears), I can say building and fixing things on your own isn't impossible. If you do consider living remotely, a pilots license and small 3-seat plane suddenly makes the world a lot smaller.

I actually always liked the idea of living isolated in the woods where I would have to rely on myself to do all things, but only for a short while. I pretty much have the skills that are required, I learned those just in case. But knowing how to do such things does not mean that I want to do so permanently. For me knowing those skills is like an insurance policy, that is all. I do not dream of living primitive. A plane would not help either.

I love shopping. I love having a hospital near by. I love buying my food and not having to grow or gather or raise or hunt it. If you live the way you describe there is nothing else possible, time would not be there to do much else. Galt's gulch really was more of a metaphor, the book is fiction, remember?

I had a friend back in Germany who took AS very serious without understanding the philosophy behind it. In the end he committed suicide because he got so distraught by reality, he could not take it any longer. He kept calling here night after night to build a gulch. Of course he was very irrational and would not understand that self sacrifice is not a base to build an ideal upon.

I admire the way the pioneers endured the hardships they endured and some of them even succeeded. I was born right after WWII in Germany. We had hardship plenty. I would not wish this on anybody and certainly would not willingly give up what I have gained. Working from within is really the only option we have.

Going into the woods or onto the sea without having huge funds to get all equipment and personal that one might be needing is only a dream that makes you feel good for a moment. But reality of what that means is in the end your master :D

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What if, instead of thinking in terms of developing a Galt's Gulch in isolation, hidden away, we think up a plan to develop a Model Version and seek investors among the rich? The plan would involve making a reality tv kind of show, documenting how problems are solved, how the region grows and prospers. SHOW the people, the doubters & naysayers and convince them that way that their fears are unfounded. It's hard for people today to imagine what it was like to witness the change from the horse & buggy to the automobile.

Nyeh. This won't work, either--practical demonstrations have no influence on people who are tied to a sacrificial, anti-life morality. The very nature of their ideology militates against it, because they believe that there's no connection between the moral and the practical. They will keep pursuing the so-called moral at the expense of the practical no matter what. (That, and you can't guarantee that your practical demonstration will work out, either. Freedom allows men to be good, it doesn't *make* them good.)

I mean, look at what happened to Hong Kong. It was like a little experiment in Capitalism in the middle of China, yet the British just abandoned it rather than defend its existence.

It is more important to start with the fundamentals and pursue ideological change that way than to try a superficial top-down approach.

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Nyeh. This won't work, either--practical demonstrations have no influence on people who are tied to a sacrificial, anti-life morality. The very nature of their ideology militates against it, because they believe that there's no connection between the moral and the practical. They will keep pursuing the so-called moral at the expense of the practical no matter what. (That, and you can't guarantee that your practical demonstration will work out, either. Freedom allows men to be good, it doesn't *make* them good.)

I mean, look at what happened to Hong Kong. It was like a little experiment in Capitalism in the middle of China, yet the British just abandoned it rather than defend its existence.

It is more important to start with the fundamentals and pursue ideological change that way than to try a superficial top-down approach.

Those who are anti-life and pro-sacrificial will never change anyway. The point of a practical real-life demonstration is twofold: one, so those of us hankering for the experience can have it NOW, and those who say they want to see how it works can see it. Why take the view that it won't work? I think it will work because there are already a lot of people around who are interested in finding out HOW it works.

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Nyeh. This won't work, either--practical demonstrations have no influence on people who are tied to a sacrificial, anti-life morality. The very nature of their ideology militates against it, because they believe that there's no connection between the moral and the practical. They will keep pursuing the so-called moral at the expense of the practical no matter what. (That, and you can't guarantee that your practical demonstration will work out, either. Freedom allows men to be good, it doesn't *make* them good.)

I mean, look at what happened to Hong Kong. It was like a little experiment in Capitalism in the middle of China, yet the British just abandoned it rather than defend its existence.

It is more important to start with the fundamentals and pursue ideological change that way than to try a superficial top-down approach.

But those aren't the people I would think such a thing would target anyway. Your argument is basically the same as saying well you'll never convince Karl Marx that capitalism is good by showing him so why bother even trying.

Hong Kong was not abandoned, the British had a 99 year lease. the lease expired and China wanted it back. Do you believe it would have been in the UK's best interest to start a war with China? That's just ridiculous.

As an instructor I have found time and time again that THE best way to teach someone is through example, whether it be leadership, stripping and assembling of the M242 25mm Chain Gun, or illustrating a principal of battle. A friend of mine had a simple saying for this... See it, touch it, know it.

Edited by Zip
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I think it will work because there are already a lot of people around who are interested in finding out HOW it works.

Yet this is still problematic, because what are you going to say to them when your capitalism experiment doesn't produce any marvels?

Long-term ideological benefits are not something that you can demonstrate in a few months, Survivor-style.

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As an instructor I have found time and time again that THE best way to teach someone is through example, whether it be leadership, stripping and assembling of the M242 25mm Chain Gun, or illustrating a principal of battle. A friend of mine had a simple saying for this... See it, touch it, know it.

What type of example? I, personally, learn best when I'm given a book of accurate instructions and am left alone with the whatever-it-is. The presence of the instructor makes me nervous and people usually perform familiar tasks so quickly that I can't follow what they're doing.

What's worse, if someone doesn't have any grounding to understand *why* the example worked the way it did, they'll often just come up with an erroneous B.S. explanation that does more harm than good.

It is generally better to instill *virtues* via example than through lectures and "do as I say, not as I do" behavior, but I've found that different things require different learning methods. Learning broad abstract ideas requires books and lectures, not endless impossible-to-integrate examples. (Examples are useful as illustrations, but not as sole content.) Learning physical skills (like typing or playing an instrument) requires *practice*. Learning wisdom requires experience.

People aren't going to learn that capitalism is good just by watching it in action, just like you'll never learn to play the trombone just by watching someone else play.

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Zip, thanks for answering the Hong Kong point. I meant to, and forgot.

JMeganSnow, my husband & I are similar in many situations - we have just completed 9 years' worth of major renovations on our home, working MOSTLY from books (with some applicable internet assistance too, along the way.) In addition, many of us who are now convinced of Objectivism's worth are working in part from books, in part from comprehending the enormous achievement of the USA and freedom in general in the better developed countries.

But... a lot of people have studied elements of Objectivism, and not been convinced. Others have been subjected to our excited enthused rants, and been skeptical at best. Anyway, those who aren't downright antagonistic do wonder how various aspects would be handled.

Even if it took us 5 years to get this project off the ground, we are all of us pretty sure that there's no way things are going to change fundamentally in either the US or Canada - even if the economy goes completely pear-shaped. Faced with a Republican president endorsing the bailout bill of $700 million, people STILL don't get why it's wrong. How much more evidence do we need to know that the way to teach people is by showing them, rather than waiting for there to be enough people who understand the fundamentals.

I think part of the tv show will be about explaining the fundamentals, maybe with little asides which could be done with animation for example. The other thing too is to make a living diorama, which could be the means to turn people around and get them to support capitalism AND limited government.

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What if, instead of thinking in terms of developing a Galt's Gulch in isolation, hidden away, we think up a plan to develop a Model Version and seek investors among the rich? The plan would involve making a reality tv kind of show, documenting how problems are solved, how the region grows and prospers. SHOW the people, the doubters & naysayers and convince them that way that their fears are unfounded. It's hard for people today to imagine what it was like to witness the change from the horse & buggy to the automobile.

Thoughts?

Yes. This is one of the best ideas that I have heard yet and is similar to what I proposed on my blog here

~~> http://atlantis-is-real.blogspot.com/2008/...y-proposal.html

These are the things that can be done to change the culture from it's base up NOW, not in some hypothetical future. We still need New Intellectuals and ARI's work is excellent, but there's is to either sustain our ideals once they are in place or to cause gradual change. What they are doing will take decades, at least. With the types of ideas we have proposed cultural change can happen withing several years to a decade. I want freedom now, I couldn't care less about some hypothetical future where I may not exist.

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What type of example? I, personally, learn best when I'm given a book of accurate instructions and am left alone with the whatever-it-is.

You do, I do , and most thinkers probably do. The problem is this isn't true for most people who learn by listening to the opinions of others and/or watching TV. These are the people that matter the most when it comes to change because they are the largest group and unfortunately we live in a democracy.

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How much more evidence do we need to know that the way to teach people is by showing them, rather than waiting for there to be enough people who understand the fundamentals.

The failure of socialism is not a secret; both it's economic and social consequences are widely known. Capitalism also has been shown to bring prosperity where there has been little or none. There is no lack of empirical data. This is not a matter of being on a fence about the conclusion and needing more data points.

What prevents people from embracing capitalism; what makes them betray it - is their altruistic ethics. As long as people hang on to their faulty moral standards - creating another supportive data point (TV show, real life Galt's Gulch, or any similar project) is not going to be effective.

Edited by ~Sophia~
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I wish people would just move on from that idea.

Yes indeed. This idea of a gulch is unrealistic and should not occur to people who claim to have adapted reason as their guide for living. It is a wish that sounds so very nice but is ignoring reality and how things are changed :)

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I just want to add my two cents here.

I think what might be a viable option is having most objectivists who can move into a city-state, like Hong Kong or Singapore. I'm already making plans to move to Hong Kong after college (much to my parent's frustration). It's not really gulching - we're still integrated in a society - but we'd be concentrating, and hopefully having a positive effect on where we've all moved. It's sort of like an Objectivist City version of the Libertarian Free State Project.

It doesn't have the hopelessly unachievable goal of a Objectivist USA, or the hermit - like idea of moving to a secret cave in the desert. Remember, the Gulch in AS was filled with maybe 1,000 people holding out until they could take the world back. Not 25,000 Objectivists who decided the world wasn't worth it.

Just a rough draft of an idea, and I won't pretend I think it's fool-proof by any standard. Just my ideas on this topic.

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The failure of socialism is not a secret; both it's economic and social consequences are widely known. Capitalism also has been shown to bring prosperity where there has been little or none. There is no lack of empirical data. This is not a matter of being on a fence about the conclusion and needing more data points.

What prevents people from embracing capitalism; what makes them betray it - is their altruistic ethics. As long as people hang on to their faulty moral standards - creating another supportive data point (TV show, real life Galt's Gulch, or any similar project) is not going to be effective.

True - socialism is acknowledged as a failure but only by some of us. Sacrifice has been around since the year dot in many different forms and for many different reasons. Fact is, it's been around so long that we're up against the fact of its longevity along with the fact that mankind has still somehow managed to remain alive. It hasn't killed us so people don't believe it ever will.

What I think the show would display that hasn't been seen before is the kind of joy that happens when people actually live the dream of freedom.

What kinds of decisions do people deal with on the day-to-day basis in a fully capitalist society?

The one thing this data point has going for it is that it would give fuel and motive power to Objectivists everywhere to keep going.

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True - socialism is acknowledged as a failure but only by some of us.

Socialism is no longer held as the ideal by intellectuals and economists alike. It is however because of altruism that people hang on to the mixed economy model. People understand that social programs are unsustainable on their own (but believe they are right morally) and that you need some of the free, wealth generating parts in order to keep them afloat.

What I think the show would display that hasn't been seen before is the kind of joy that happens when people actually live the dream of freedom.

You would have been faced with the same usual arguments. That there are people in society who can successfully provide for themselves (just like your show participants) and that there are those who can't for whatever reason (self imposed or not) and that the only moral thing (because it is inhumane not to) is to take care of those less fortunate. And that, if you are a "good person" then you can't feel joy (because it will be tainted with guilt) if others around you are not taken care of - at least on some basic "humane" level.

Americans do want to live with freedom - they just think that in it's full version, the way we advocate it - it is immoral. They can feel the contradiction but are unable (or unwilling) to resolve it.

With all due respect, I think you are very naive in this respect.

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Yes. This is one of the best ideas that I have heard yet and is similar to what I proposed on my blog here

~~> http://atlantis-is-real.blogspot.com/2008/...y-proposal.html

These are the things that can be done to change the culture from it's base up NOW, not in some hypothetical future. We still need New Intellectuals and ARI's work is excellent, but there's is to either sustain our ideals once they are in place or to cause gradual change. What they are doing will take decades, at least. With the types of ideas we have proposed cultural change can happen withing several years to a decade. I want freedom now, I couldn't care less about some hypothetical future where I may not exist.

Thanks for your supportive comments, EC. Sorry I didn't respond faster to you - I missed your post before. I agree that it's worthwhile to work "both ends of the room," as it were. I'm definitely not advocating a tv show as a replacement, but rather as an addition to, the current efforts being made.

More replies to other thread responders will be made later! Thanks to everyone for your thoughts so far.

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I've read Atlas Shrugged at least fifteen times without ever encountering such a word as "gulching" used in *any* context. Sure, many of the strikers referred to the valley as "Galt's Gulch", but "gulching"? :P

I consider "gulch" as a verb to be even worse than "gift" as a verb. Horrendous!

I just discovered that Wikipedia has an entry for "Gulching": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulching

Yikes! What sort of society would accept "gulching" as a word!?

John Link

Edited by John Link
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It seems like most posters, at least the ones who stay on topic, think the whole idea of gulching or escaping is to punish society, be a martyr, or some similar form of self sacrifice. Aside from stating facts about population demographics, I didn't attack those who advocate continuing this political and philosophical battle for morals in America. In fact I commended them. So why attack the idea of opting out? Did I miss some tenet in Objectivist philosophy that requires me to push for a better society?

I and probably the others who feel similarly desire escape because we're tired of fighting a losing battle and being surrounded by people who think we're nuts. Plus, I've got no close ties in America, and I enjoy the outdoors (not like a yuppie but like a real woodsman). If you're one of many people who couldn't design a log cabin or has a ton of friends and family here, then striking out on your own in a foreign place probably isn't for you, but please then just don't post instead of posting how escaping isn't realistic. I was hoping to get a discussion on how others have achieved this or hope to achieve this.

If you want to debate the plausibility of America becoming Objectivist, make a thread for it in the Debate Forum. I was initially going to make that thread, but by now I've had my fill. Thanks a lot.

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I and probably the others who feel similarly desire escape because we're tired of fighting a losing battle and being surrounded by people who think we're nuts. Plus, I've got no close ties in America, and I enjoy the outdoors (not like a yuppie but like a real woodsman). If you're one of many people who couldn't design a log cabin or has a ton of friends and family here, then striking out on your own in a foreign place probably isn't for you, but please then just don't post instead of posting how escaping isn't realistic. I was hoping to get a discussion on how others have achieved this or hope to achieve this.

Maybe you should look at all the responses carefully. Might it be that there is a clue for you?

Going off on your own and living in the woods is great if you like to do so, but apparently there were no people here that would like to join you. Each person has their own preferences, so don't be disappointed if nobody wants what you want.

Just because there are many here that strive to live by the same philosophy does not make us of one mold. So, have fun building your place and maybe along the way you will find some like minded people. Be the pioneer if you wish and provide the first steps to your very own gulch :)

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Halsey17, you are not alone. There are others who do not agree that waiting is the only way, though we tend to appreciate those that are activists in that way as well.

The end result we are all working for tends to look the same, the journey may be significantly different though.

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I actually kinda like the idea of living somewhere where I'd be more self-sufficient, but that's also just because I really enjoy a lot of the activities that come with that. I will probably get a house somewhere in the country later on and have a fairly large amount of land, and maybe have a small farm or something that provides me with a lot of stuff I need on an everyday basis.

I dunno if I'd want to live on an island somewhere, though, unless there was a real chance that it'd pay off immensely in a few years. Heh. I like the idea of migrating to Mars better, just because if you get a permanent base there, labor will be really valuable and there's actually economic incentives to move there (i.e. you'd make a ton more than here) if you provide a valuable service.

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Halsey17, you are not alone. There are others who do not agree that waiting is the only way, though we tend to appreciate those that are activists in that way as well.

Waiting is hard, but so far I have not heard of a solution that is viable. There was the mention of "somebody with money". Who? People with a lot of money do not need a gulch populated by a bunch of people who depend on their money.

Building this dream would require enormous funds no matter where it would be. The more remote, the more funds are needed. Funds that can not be created by a few people living on a barter system (which it would have to be) in their gulch.

This dream exists in a vacuum.

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