DavidOdden Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 The surest way to break thier will is to destroy Mecca and Medina, and it would also demonstrate that Allah is not omnipotent. Destroy Allah's rock in the Kabba = no more Haj, rendering thier belief system impotent. They will question why Allah failed to protect his own city and the birthplace of the Prophet.If we nuked the Vatican, would that obliterate Catholicism? There's nothing in Christianity that say man cannot destroy the cities of men, and Islam is no different in that respect. In fact, since Islam is a religion founded on suffering and specializes in holding itself to be a refuge from the suffering of the world, giving them some real world-class suffering might strengthen their resolve that this is Allah's will. You can't use "reasonable" tactics in a war against irrationality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.S Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Unfortunately, I think destroying Mecca would only further polarize both Islamic people and "anti-Americanists/anti-Westernists", and lead to a large increase in military and civilian casualties to the U.S., Canada, Britain and other countries serving in the Mid-east. As we've already seen since 2001, carpet-bombing these countries isn't going to get rid of the targets, nor will occupation. They certainly might help in securing an established base of operations, but not much much more than that. The militaries fighting need to change tactics - they're too used to "army vs army". This is a small group of people using a corrupt version of a peaceful ideology and guerilla tactics and our side needs to adjust. They need to use specialized agencies (CIA and what-have-you) to track down, infiltrate and assassinate the leadership - very quietly. They need to pump in propaganda to these countries and make it harder for al-Qaida to recruit men through force (brute force, brain-washing, blackmail, threatening to kill their family and giving their family money). I think the movie Body of Lies sums this up pretty well - it's a different type of war, the same old tactics won't win it. All a military occupancy in Iraq and Afghanistan does is give these guerillas easy targets for suicide bombings. And suicide bombing means they're desperate - they're losing. They don't have many people to use in their fight and can't handle a 1-on-1 fight vs an organized army, so they need their men to take as many lives as possible. If we can take the Strike in Atlas as an example - Galt had his "army" retreat and withdrew all of their resources to where the "bad guys" couldn't get to them and kill them. I'm not advocating the West pulls out and closes our borders, but it is an option. But who knows what will happen without a presence in the area? It could be the people themselves would rise up and overthrow they're radical leaders. But please remember that this fight isn't against 1 billion Muslims. It's a small group of guerillas being funded by certain anti-American countries. Economic pressure, small surgical campaigns and propaganda will be the winner of this over-time. Over-the-top actions such as bombing Mecca will just give them more reason to kill Westerners (just like bombing the WTC polarized the West into action). Also, just wanted to point this out, "Islam" literally means "Peace", and "Islamists" are "Followers of Peace". No matter how irrational religion is, the people we're fighting aren't "Islamists", but crazy, violent power-hungry war-mongers. Well, have that for some fodder As for sacrificing rights, I completely agree with Maximus' first post: By legislating away essential liberty, such as with the so-called "Patriot Act," we play directly into the hands of such barbarians by destroying ourselves from within. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtColville Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Also, just wanted to point this out, "Islam" literally means "Peace", and "Islamists" are "Followers of Peace". "Islam" means "submission". From Wikipedia: The word Islam is a verbal noun originating from the triliteral root s-l-m, and is derived from the Arabic verb Aslama, which means "to accept, surrender or submit." Thus, Islam means acceptance of and submission to God, and believers must demonstrate this by worshipping him, following his commands, and avoiding polytheism. Submission is what they want of everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.S Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 "Islam" means "submission". From Wikipedia: Submission is what they want of everyone. Well I guess I was misinformed. But I still think most people want "peace" no matter their religion or philosophy (however irrational it is), and the "war" is still on a select few guerillas of various countries. I've gathered that that's a dissenting opinion around here, but I find it hard to find fault or make war on an entire people who have been raised since birth to bow their backs, based on the violent actions of a few of them. If that's all they know, I'd say they're just misguided, and that time and the actions of a few rational people will eventually show them how wrong they are (similar to the theme of Anthem - Prometheus breaks away, and has plans to go back and bring the rest of humanity out of darkness). And now that I think about it, the conversation I learned that from was with a few Muslim friends of mine. They explained it that bowing to God in submission is good because God wants peace, and so submission is peaceful. My bad - the conversation was a long time ago, and iirc, I disagreed with them in that I refused to bow to anything or anyone. I couldn't explain properly why - it was before I'd heard of Objectivism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Ellison Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Also, just wanted to point this out, "Islam" literally means "Peace", and "Islamists" are "Followers of Peace". No matter how irrational religion is, the people we're fighting aren't "Islamists", but crazy, violent power-hungry war-mongers. Well, have that for some fodder "Islam" means "submission". From Wikipedia: Hehe. This is the funniest conversation I've seen on this forum as of yet. I think I'll start combing the Internet for the same statement Chris made, just so I can give the same reply to someone. Damn why couldn't I have spotted that line first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.S Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Hehe. This is the funniest conversation I've seen on this forum as of yet. I think I'll start combing the Internet for the same statement Chris made, just so I can give the same reply to someone. Damn why couldn't I have spotted that line first. I'm glad I could amuse you I guess now I'm paying for my ignorance and laziness in not checking for myself, but that's ok. My girlfriend actually laughed at me and told me I was wrong too. Ah well... I think the rest of my argument still stands though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D'Ippolito Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) It's a very common lie, one that many people in the mainstream media refuse to call them on (it would be insensitive now wouldn't it?), so don't feel *too* bad. On the other hand it's possible that the Muslims who claim "Islam" means "Peace" are thinking that there will be no peace until the entire world submits. Sort of the way the Soviets desired world peace, leaving unsaid that it would be under their domination. The peace of the graveyard as a college professor of mine (the only conservative on that campus at the time) put it. Edited January 15, 2009 by Steve D'Ippolito Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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