deserted island scenarios

[The Wrath]

I am re-watching the first 4 seasons of Lost so that I'm not completely lost (no pun intended) when the new season starts next month, and it has got me thinking. What do you think would be the proper way to organize a small society in a situation where a relatively large number ofpeople have become stranded on an island with extremely limited resources?

What is the proper way to divy up the possessions of the people who didn't survive? In the show, Sawyer (who turns into progressively less of an asshole, as time moves on) takes pretty much everything, including things he doesn't need, and stores them in a secret stash where no one else can get them. Jack, being the only doctor of the bunch, frequently needs the liquor to sterilize people's wounds. Should all the liquor and medicine be automatically given to the doctor? You may remember the episode where Sawyer refuses to tell Jack where the asthma medicine is, which he needs because there is a girl with asthma who can't breathe. In order to get him to give up the medicine, Jack lets Sa'id (a former Republican Guard interrogator) shove bamboo under his fingernails. Is that a moral thing to do in that situation?

How should criminals be punished? There are a couple examples of punishing aggressive behavior, such as when Jin is handcuffed to the wreckage as punishment for attacking Michael, but there isn't really a good way to sufficiently limit someone's mobility to ensure that they can't continue to be a problem. There's the guy named Ethan, who is one of "the Others," that they know has kidnapped and murdered people.

If they had captured him alive, should they just have executed him, once they got information out of him? I can't visualize any other method by which they could assure that he would never again be a problem.

Edited December 13, 2008 by JMeganSnow
Fixed Spacing issue

[aleph_0]

Obviously, everybody should gather fruits and hunt animals, deliver them at my feet, and I will distribute as it is appropriate.

Plan B would be to divide unclaimed goods as people can make use of them.

In re: bamboo shoot, depends on how much he cares for the girl who can't breathe. He's undermining his own claim for others to respect his own rights by doing it--but if the girl matters enough, it'll be worth it.

And yeah, execution is fine given a few things: 1) You have to figure out a way to execute him so that the executor doesn't undergo some psychological damage. (I think this is actually a problem we are still working on today, to a degree. I should ask my uncle, who's a prison guard and might have some relevant information.) 2) You should have a good method of determining who should be executed. Some kind of primitive court, a decision-making process about laws, about how to make new laws, about who can enforce what, etc. would probably be good/useful.

[JMeganSnow]

I am re-watching the first 4 seasons of Lost so that I'm not completely lost (no pun intended) when the new season starts next month, and it has got me thinking. What do you think would be the proper way to organize a small society in a situation where a relatively large number ofpeople have become stranded on an island with extremely limited resources?

*Initially* or *permanently*?

Initially you don't really have any option other than martial law, but that should only last for the duration of the emergency situation and be replaced by a voluntary government ASAP.

I, personally, would go to great lengths to AVOID establishing anything resembling democracy and instead assign a group of delegates to draft a "this is how the colony will be organized" paper, which you can then either sign or get out. But personally, I'd probably rather live alone in the wilderness than with a group of random airplane travelers and my first act would be to put as much distance between them and myself as possible.

As for executions and the like, why would anyone suffer "psychological damage" from killing someone who clearly deserved it? I certainly wouldn't.

[Sir Andrew]

I've never seen the show, but as far as divvying up resources goes, I do think a trade system could work. You'd give the doctor the things that aid him in his function, and the rest goes the same way. As far as the asthma girl is concerned, on a desert island situation, giving her the medication you have would not be trading a value for a non-value, because in that situation, every hands capable of fishing or whatever is valuable. You could simply trade it for, say, 5 crabs.

As far as the criminals go, if they're killing people, you need to take care of that problem with some retaliatory force.

[John McVey]

If the island is big enough for a plane-load of people to survive indefinitely on, then a proper property and trading system should have been instituted within 2-5 days of the crash, once it became apparent that rescue wasn't going to show up any time soon. The resources on the plane (including bits of the plane itself), other than those effects identifiably belonging to the survivors, should have been divided up equally among the survivors as best as could be done, along with horse-trading of what's indivisible. The reason is that no one person can claim to have any right to a share in the plane and its contents than any other, and homesteading doesn't apply because it is not a natural situation. The island itself, however, is natural so the ownership of it and resources gathered from it would be straight homesteading etc. After that, then, LFC and standard common law as most would already understand.

JJM

[The Wrath]

*Initially* or *permanently*?

Initially you don't really have any option other than martial law, but that should only last for the duration of the emergency situation and be replaced by a voluntary government ASAP.

I, personally, would go to great lengths to AVOID establishing anything resembling democracy and instead assign a group of delegates to draft a "this is how the colony will be organized" paper, which you can then either sign or get out. But personally, I'd probably rather live alone in the wilderness than with a group of random airplane travelers and my first act would be to put as much distance between them and myself as possible.

As for executions and the like, why would anyone suffer "psychological damage" from killing someone who clearly deserved it? I certainly wouldn't.

How would you establish martial law? Just find the biggest, toughest men and have them control everyone? I can't visualize a way to make martial law work in this scenario, because: it will lead to rivalries for control among the "tough" guys, all the "non-tough" people will be pissed and likely to rebel, and it could break out into open warfare (of perhaps a primitive nature).

I agree that democracy should be avoided, and they don't ever really do anything like that on the show. Jack sort of becomes the de facto leader, although he takes up the mantle somewhat reluctantly. At other times, Jack kind of oversteps his bounds and bosses people around, but he generally does what's right. And this "group of delegates" has to be assigned somehow. I would think the best way for that is to give a few days for people to get to know each other, then elect them. It may be a democratic election, but I don't think this would be comparable with actual "democracy."

Just curious, but why would you want to go live alone, rather than in a colony of survivors? Sure, there will be problems with any society built

by people who don't know each other and just survived a plane crash, but it would still be better than living out in the wilderness by yourself...

especially with polar bears, crazy French women, and the Black Smoke Monster lurking about.

I think your opinion about executions is a little naive. Even if you know someone deserved to die, I don't think it would be easy to let go of

actually having killed someone. There's no shortage of examples were the biggest hard-asses in the military have problems later in life because

of the knowledge that they have personally killed someone.

I've never seen the show, but as far as divvying up resources goes, I do think a trade system could work. You'd give the doctor the things that aid him in his function, and the rest goes the same way. As far as the asthma girl is concerned, on a desert island situation, giving her the medication you have would not be trading a value for a non-value, because in that situation, every hands capable of fishing or whatever is valuable. You could simply trade it for, say, 5 crabs.

As far as the criminals go, if they're killing people, you need to take care of that problem with some retaliatory force.

Well, in the show, the girl is the laziest of the bunch and does nothing but sun bathe all day. Even so, the inhalers actually belong to her. So I guess it could be argued that, given the urgency of the scenario and the fact that it was her property, torture is justified.

Edited December 14, 2008 by The Wrath

[The Wrath]

If the island is big enough for a plane-load of people to survive indefinitely on, then a proper property and trading system should have been instituted within 2-5 days of the crash, once it became apparent that rescue wasn't going to show up any time soon. The resources on the plane (including bits of the plane itself), other than those effects identifiably belonging to the survivors, should have been divided up equally among the survivors as best as could be done, along with horse-trading of what's indivisible. The reason is that no one person can claim to have any right to a share in the plane and its contents than any other, and homesteading doesn't apply because it is not a natural situation. The island itself, however, is natural so the ownership of it and resources gathered from it would be straight homesteading etc. After that, then, LFC and standard common law as most would already understand.

JJM

In the show, they generally do a good job of respecting property rights. Everyone has their own little shelter, which is generally respected. Sawyer is a little different and, as a result, becomes something of a pariah until he reforms his ways.

I'm still not sure about the divying up of resources though. With stuff like bits of wreckage, tarps, etc. I think the obvious way to divy things up is to give everyone an equal share, or as close to an equal share as possible. But I personally think that all the medicine from the dead people should go to the doctor, assuming that he's trustworthy--which Jack is. I also think the doctor should get all the booze, to be used for sterilization purposes. None of the survivors has a "right" to any of the belongings of the dead, but the doctor is the best qualified person to determine how they should be used.

[Maximus]

But personally, I'd probably rather live alone in the wilderness than with a group of random airplane travelers and my first act would be to put as much distance between them and myself as possible.

It sounds good in theory, but in a genuine survival situation, you would rapidly die. I know from my own experience in SEE (Survival, Evasion,and Escape) training in the military, that it takes a lot of energy just to obtain enough nutrition just to live. The best way to ensure survival of the group is through co-operation, in the early stages. It would need to be established that there is a hierarchy, a command structure, with clearly deliniated duties required from each individual based on thier skill set. Anyone wandering off on thier own would be dead meat within a couple of weeks, if that long. Think of injuries, which, in our technical civilization, are taken for granted. In a survival situation, something as simple as a sprained ankle would be a death warrant. A broken bone or anything serious would cause rapid deterioration, and death.

Reality, people, that the name of the game in this type of senario.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Maximus

[JMeganSnow]

How would you establish martial law? Just find the biggest, toughest men and have them control everyone?

Um, no. Haven't you ever had to deal with a large group of confused people before? I have.

Someone will take charge just by fiat of having a take-charge personality, but their only legitimacy derives from a willingness to use force to keep people in line. This is initially going to happen whether you like it or not because the immediate requirements of survival don't allow for months of debating to establish a legitimate gov't. And, yes, some people will get pissed off at you for what amounts to saving their lives, but you always get a couple of assholes in any sizable group, generally people who want to be in charge for its own sake rather than as a means to an end (surviving). So, yes, initially there will be a power struggle.

Hence my comment that if you're an independent sort, you're probably better off putting as much land as possible between you and everyone else while they're still getting organized. Find a defensible position and make some weapons *immediately*, even if it's only gathering a few good throwing rocks and a nice solid club.

There are some groups of people with a rational-enough outlook where I wouldn't think that sort of thing would be necessary (military, Objectivists), but a random grab bag of people? Forget it. Just assume they're going to be irrational and get out. If they prove you wrong in a few weeks you might consider rejoining them, but it's better to watch the fireworks from a safe distance rather than strive for a leadership position or kowtow to whoever *does* end up as the leader.

[Jake_Ellison]

But I personally think that all the medicine from the dead people should go to the doctor, assuming that he's trustworthy--which Jack is. I also think the doctor should get all the booze, to be used for sterilization purposes. None of the survivors has a "right" to any of the belongings of the dead, but the doctor is the best qualified person to determine how they should be used.

What is the principle behind that statement? To me it sounds like you're offering a pragmatic solution rather than a principled one.

Or should the same principle (those who are qualified should be awarded property) apply to every aspect of human interaction? If not, what's the difference?