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World without money.It is possible..or not?How it will be?

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LordDan
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I watched 2 days ago an interesting documentary Zeitgeist Addendum and I saw in it that people try to build a world without the monetary system,without banks and investments,debts..and others...if I think like an economist,this is impossible..but as a dreamer, it can be possible in hundreds of years..

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I watched 2 days ago an interesting documentary Zeitgeist Addendum and I saw in it that people try to build a world without the monetary system,without banks and investments,debts..and others...if I think like an economist,this is impossible..but as a dreamer, it can be possible in hundreds of years..
We used to have a world without money, when men wandered the surface of the earth as naked savages. Fortunately, those days are over, and I hope they are gone forever. But it is possible that civilization could collapse and we could retreat to barbarism, so we have to be on our guard against those people who are trying to build a world without a monetary system.
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I don''t know about you guys, but I don't want to have to haul chickens to the market again just to get some grain. A generalized unit of trade, say currency, works much better for that purpose..

Yes..money is an universal trade object...world wide recognized..but some scientists try to make a better worldI(they say)..Look here: The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture. There are many people today who are concerned with the serious problems that face our modern society: unemployment, violent crime, replacement of humans by technology, over-population and a decline in the Earth's ecosystems. As you will see, The Venus Project is dedicated to confronting all of these problems by actively engaging in the research, development, and application of workable solutions. Through the use of innovative approaches to social awareness, educational incentives, and the consistent application of the best that science and technology can offer directly to the social system, The Venus Project offers a comprehensive plan for social reclamation in which human beings, technology, and nature will be able to coexist in a long-term, sustainable state of dynamic equilibrium. ( source www.thevenusproject.com )

They say the earth has enough resources for all and that the technologie is so advanced..we can produce as much as we want..(for example energy,food,etc)... Yes I think that some things can be for free.. for example food,electricity, the internet..and others..We pay for the internet now, but I'm sure that this will disappear in the future.

Anyway..today 97% of money in US is scriptural money..we can't see it .. and money doesn't exist,it's only an invention by the federal reserve to resolve the inflation,crizes, and to assure "a better world". Today...the us and the whole world try to resolve the depresion with invented money... billions of $ are given to the biggest companies in America for example..but the colaps of smaller entities is not far.. so, the fed controls everything: the money,the debt ,the whole system..but we can't do nothing..we are only their slaves :thumbsup:

Edited by LordDan
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Yes..money is an universal trade object...world wide recognized..but some scientists try to make a better worldI(they say)..Look here: The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture.

Yes and history has shown us just how great everything tuns out when people decide they are going to "redesign" culture. Let's hear it for Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler and all the rest!

There are many people today who are concerned with the serious problems that face our modern society: unemployment, violent crime, replacement of humans by technology, over-population and a decline in the Earth's ecosystems. As you will see, The Venus Project is dedicated to confronting all of these problems by actively engaging in the research, development, and application of workable solutions. Through the use of innovative approaches to social awareness, educational incentives, and the consistent application of the best that science and technology can offer directly to the social system, The Venus Project offers a comprehensive plan for social reclamation in which human beings, technology, and nature will be able to coexist in a long-term, sustainable state of dynamic equilibrium. ( source www.thevenusproject.com )

Here is another common thread with the "leaders" I mentioned above, the belief in the holistic, generic, faceless horde called "society". Who's society exactly? Who is society? Who in society has the right to tell anyone how it should be run, how it should be organized, how it should be governed?

They say the earth has enough resources for all and that the technologie is so advanced..we can produce as much as we want..(for example energy,food,etc)... Yes I think that some things can be for free.. for example food,electricity, the internet..and others..We pay for the internet now, but I'm sure that this will disappear in the future.

Who does the production of all this stuff you want to give for free? What happens to them when you make their way of life/living literally worthless? When you make the internet free are you going to accept the fact that you have just made millions of people unemployed too?

Collectivist tyranny and socialist claptrap all dressed up in pseudo science fiction.

I hate to use a monetary euphemism but, I'm not buying your sales pitch.

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They say the earth has enough resources for all and that the technologie is so advanced..we can produce as much as we want..(for example energy,food,etc)... Yes I think that some things can be for free.. for example food,electricity, the internet..and others..We pay for the internet now, but I'm sure that this will disappear in the future.

koombayah, my lord, koombayahhhh....

come on, that website looks a lot like marxism with prettier, more modern jetson's buildings. They even have the nerve to use the example of the US going from 600 commercial planes to 90,000 as an example of how "technology" magically deals with shortages of resources. I hate to be the one to break to them, but that happens because of capitalism(which, incidentally requires capital) Groups make notoriously bad decisions. individuals with control of capital(resources in their terminology) make decisions and affect change. How they believe a committee or bureaucrat with no vested interest is going to be more efficient than a capitalist with profit motive and his own money on the line is entirely outside of my minds capacity to comprehend. It's a pretty thin veneer for and old economic catastrophe in system form.

At base it is still the same old naive, can't we all just get along, 2nd grade ethics that murdered hundreds of millions of people in the last century.

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I want to preface this by informing you that I never heard of whatever it is you're advertising, nor did I go to the website. You should only read the following if you're interested in a conversation on the subject you raised first (money), rather than the project you mentioned.

Without money there is no way to communicate the value of an object to people who are not capable of knowing that value at a glance.

Let's take a Project X (or Venus, if it involves what I'm going to talk about)) for instance:

You are the project manager, and you have to decide whether to have a truck or a piece of medical equipment built next. In order to be able to evaluate which costs more, and which is more useful, you have to have one of two things:

1. You have to know the price of everything, in a universal currency: money, gold, chickens, whatever. Chickens of course would be a bad idea to use, because they are extremely easy to produce by anyone, so their value would go down quickly, and you'd have massive inflation.

2. Your project manager would have to have intimate knowledge of metallurgy, mechanical engineering, transportation etc. (everything involved in deciding the cost and usefulness of a truck), and medical sciences, including research and development of medical equipment, human biology, healthcare management etc.

Obviously, the second solution would be impossible. It would take many decades for a man to become even a mediocre project manager. Your project would have to resort to the use of currency, even if they plan on recreating the USSR or some other form of dictatorship: every society of more than a few dozen people needs a currency to exist, even if that society is ruled by "wise" tyrants who are in control of everything and everyone.

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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Yes I think that some things can be for free.. for example food,electricity, the internet..and others..We pay for the internet now, but I'm sure that this will disappear in the future.

Ain't no such thing as a free lunch! Farming equipment, generators and computers don't grow on trees! And men don't usually work for free either unless they value something more than money, or they are coerced to do so. Historically the latter has been more common than the former.

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Yes and history has shown us just how great everything tuns out when people decide they are going to "redesign" culture. Let's hear it for Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler and all the rest!

Here is another common thread with the "leaders" I mentioned above, the belief in the holistic, generic, faceless horde called "society". Who's society exactly? Who is society? Who in society has the right to tell anyone how it should be run, how it should be organized, how it should be governed?

Who does the production of all this stuff you want to give for free? What happens to them when you make their way of life/living literally worthless? When you make the internet free are you going to accept the fact that you have just made millions of people unemployed too?

Collectivist tyranny and socialist claptrap all dressed up in pseudo science fiction.

I hate to use a monetary euphemism but, I'm not buying your sales pitch.

I don't say that the project will happen :thumbsup: but it's something else...The Venus Project=Utopia, ideal community... you say that free internet makes millions unemployed :) the technology made billions unemployed.. in industry,agriculture and all the work sectors :) not this is important... in the future 70% jobs will disappear and other will rise..but the rapid changes in the life make poverty..not all the poeple can hip it up ( At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day ) this is very sad..

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I don't say that the project will happen :thumbsup: but it's something else...The Venus Project=Utopia, ideal community... you say that free internet makes millions unemployed :) the technology made billions unemployed.. in industry,agriculture and all the work sectors :) not this is important... in the future 70% jobs will disappear and other will rise..but the rapid changes in the life make poverty..not all the poeple can hip it up ( At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day ) this is very sad..

The dollar ($) sign is an American and Capitalist symbol (it's actually the U and S written in the same space, from US). Saying that someone in Zambia lives on 10 dollars, especially after advocating for the abolition of money, is absolutely meaningless.

They are living within their means, as they always have, they have nothing to do with dollars or that symbol you took the liberty to steal from what you consider your ideological enemy.

Saying that we should sacrifice what makes our lives meaningful (technology, production, money, prosperity), because of an argument you came up with by borrowing exactly what you are asking us to give up, is repulsive. In fact I'm getting ready to have my wonderfully lavish meal that I produced for myself now, so I'll leave you before my appetite leaves me.

P.S. If you wish to portray the third world as victims, you have a right to do so, as long as you're honest: compare what they had before Capitalism in the West to what they have now, and what they lost I might concede has been taken from them. But nothing else.

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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( At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day ) this is very sad..
It is, but it's their own damn collective fault. The solution is to overthrow dictatorships like Mugabe's, eliminate the residue of socialism in Tanzania, and encourage free enterprise and industrialization in these blighted spots. Beyond that, people just have to learn on their own to give up on primitivism and to embrace the expansion of capitalism. Money is essential to that expansion.
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The dollar ($) sign is an American and Capitalist symbol (it's actually the U and S written in the same space, from US). Saying that someone in Zambia lives on 10 dollars, especially after advocating for the abolition of money, is absolutely meaningless.

They are living within their means, as they always have, they have nothing to do with dollars or that symbol you took the liberty to steal from what you consider your ideological enemy.

Saying that we should sacrifice what makes our lives meaningful (technology, production, money, prosperity), because of an argument you came up with by borrowing exactly what you are asking us to give up, is repulsive. In fact I'm getting ready to have my wonderfully lavish meal that I produced for myself now, so I'll leave you before my appetite leaves me.

Ok man, I just wanted to see people opinion for an extreme change. you probably don't know about this "project" ..I don't belive in it, it's to strange for me, I put all my hope in the free market economy because I'll work in it 40-50 years from now on :thumbsup: so don't blame me,the project is not my idea, I don't work for them(it's kinda interesting but no) the zeitgeist documentary opened a bit my f*c*in mind.. Enjoy your meal, and I tell you sincere..every day more than 16000 children die from hunger,1 per 5 sec..

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It is, but it's their own damn collective fault. The solution is to overthrow dictatorships like Mugabe's, eliminate the residue of socialism in Tanzania, and encourage free enterprise and industrialization in these blighted spots. Beyond that, people just have to learn on their own to give up on primitivism and to embrace the expansion of capitalism. Money is essential to that expansion.

You are totally right..but the damn children don't choose the dictatorships,system,country,family... The problem is david, that the poverty increased in the last 50 years, after they "were helped"... but the poverty there it's not my problem, I hope that the time will solve that.i'll go now,buy some cigarettes..damn

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Enjoy your meal, and I tell you sincere..every day more than 16000 children die from hunger,1 per 5 sec..

Thanks, I will, and the second part is a a lie. However, I'll admit that some children are dying of hunger, and I blame you and everyone who chooses to get their information from movies such as the one you mentioned for their deaths: If you ignore or evade reality, reality will turn around and kill you and your children, and you are the only one to blame.

Here's why: Reality is that if you wish to survive, you have to produce food for yourself and your children, and it's time for you to recognize it. (hopefully before you decide to have those children) When one ignores reality, and has children even though one can't feed them, they will die. That person caused them to suffer and die, by ignoring reality, and that is a particularly vile form of evil.

I didn't make it that way, it just is that way, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

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http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=52571 This is the link where you can watch the documentary (for those that talk without knowledge) the 2nd part is more important ( 1 h->2h ) the first is about the enslaving of the people by the banks,and in special by the debt... nowadays Money - debt=0 => Money=Debt ... if debt=0... there is no money...niiiceee
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It's not fiction duuh,why should I lie:) ? http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/h...ernational.html and you find other pages witht he info...yes they shouldn't make so many children..such a pity to die 5 children..better to make one and die and then will be 1 killed in 25 sec :thumbsup:

Dude, you linked to a website that has "Have faith" in its motto. I just finished explaining that reality is the way it is, and those children will die without food, no matter what your faith is.

As far as your information is concerned, there's a little number at the end of the sentence, which says 12.

You should scroll down, and click on the link next to the 12, at the bottom of the page: you will find that the article which is supposed to prove your number has in fact nothing at all to do with hunger. It talks about global child mortality overall, not caused by hunger.

Of course that number they gave you is a lie, just as the idea that your faith will save those children is a lie. Those children will be saved when the people responsible for their existence will have the means to support them, and that will happen when their countries will allow for a free market economy. Your faith is irrelevant in the matter, and so is my, or anybody's, knowledge of their condition.

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It's not fiction duuh,why should I lie:) ? http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/h...ernational.html and you find other pages witht he info...yes they shouldn't make so many children..such a pity to die 5 children..better to make one and die and then will be 1 killed in 25 sec :thumbsup:

Just stating that children die does not solve the problem. There is a long history of thinkers who have worked to solve problems like this and it is a good idea to learn from the mistakes of the past, least you repeat the same errors. This means reading history and philosophy.

Just to give you a heads up, Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism would solve the problem of starvation in the world, because when men are free they prosper and when they are not free they fall into poverty and death. The problem is people (usually left wing intellectuals) are vilifying freedom, and thus the result is children and others are dying. So, it’s a choice, and a very bad one at that. These are things that you can learn from history.

To push the point further, so long as you leave men free, I have no problem with you experimenting with new systems, but as soon as you encroach upon the rights of man your (or their) idea becomes a non-starter.

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Just stating that children die does not solve the problem. There is a long history of thinkers who have worked to solve problems like this and it is a good idea to learn from the mistakes of the past, least you repeat the same errors. This means reading history and philosophy.

Just to give you a heads up, Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism would solve the problem of starvation in the world, because when men are free they prosper and when they are not free they fall into poverty and death. The problem is people (usually left wing intellectuals) are vilifying freedom, and thus the result is children and others are dying. So, it’s a choice, and a very bad one at that. These are things that you can learn from history.

To push the point further, so long as you leave men free, I have no problem with you experimenting with new systems, but as soon as you encroach upon the rights of man your (or their) idea becomes a non-starter.

Aham, maybe you'r right.. but no one is free, belive me...None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.(Goethe)

We are not free, only some actions that we do make us feel so..some people can think free but not all, the most are manipulated.. Nothing is free, we pay for all thinks..with money, time,labour,etc... but I don't want to debate with you, I started this topic cause I want to find some different mentalities of the people..to meditate a bit of other things, not only money money money...sure that money is important, but this shouldn't enslave us

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Aham, maybe you'r right.. but no one is free, belive me...None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.(Goethe)

We are not free, only some actions that we do make us feel so..some people can think free but not all, the most are manipulated.. Nothing is free, we pay for all thinks..with money, time,labour,etc... but I don't want to debate with you, I started this topic cause I want to find some different mentalities of the people..to meditate a bit of other things, not only money money money...sure that money is important, but this shouldn't enslave us

I wish you would've started with that Goethe quote. It would've saved me the trouble of considering this conversation worth my time. If you're not free, then your opinions don't matter. In fact, to me, you don't matter. We'll talk when you decide to be free, until then you may live or die, speak or listen to whomever is your master, to me it doesn't matter.

I only deal with free men.

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but the damn children don't choose the dictatorships,system,country,family...
True, and it sucks to be them. If you want to airlift third world children to civilization, be my guest. I just don't see what follows from the fact that there are evil people and dictators.
The problem is david, that the poverty increased in the last 50 years, after they "were helped"...
Probably because they "were helped".

Now then, <mod hat>This is not really an appropriate use of the debate forum, because there is no debating. This is just trolling. Genug davon.

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Yes I think that some things can be for free.. for example food,electricity, the internet..and others..

Nothing is ever free. Everything always costs somebody something... their time, their resources, the brain power, etc. etc. This reminds me of something I saw today on wikipedia.

Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge.

— Jimmy Wales, Founder of Wikipedia

Yes, it's nice to imagine that... while asking for donations. SOME people may be getting it for "free", but others are paying for it in some form or fashion. Mind you, I can appreciate a business model that asks people to contribute to it based on how much they value it. But to say it's "free" is misleading. Somebody is paying something to make it happen.

The best, fairest way for the world to deal with goods and services is by means of voluntary trade. The use of currency is the best way to facilitate this voluntary trade.

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