Trolling / Stalking a Christian forum

[The Parson]

Of course. Nobody here has said otherwise. I told that admin that I disagree with their practices but will respect them as it is their right. I then told them that even though they would not allow me to contact her through their site, I still found that person through Facebook.

Hello everybody. I'm planning to talk to the board owner about this stalking folks. I'm not here to cause trouble but I thought you may like to know that if Bex wanted to, you could be charged with stalking. Is it worth that? Now, if any of you that registered on Bible Forums would like to discuss this, start a thread in one of the only places you can on the board if your privileges have been suspended in the Chat to the Moderators section.

Thanks,

The Parson

[The Parson]

Hi, I'm Chaplain Davis, one of the members of Bible Forums. I'm afraid we may have a mutual problem with members stalking members on Bible Forums. Is there any place that we can discuss this?

[Maximus]

Wishing to offer someone advice does not constitute stalking. If you are not here to cause trouble, why do you use thinly veiled threats?

[Maximus]

I'm sure that you have caught the board owners attention. Is it your intention to come on this board and attempt some sort of intimidation?

[The Parson]

Wishing to offer someone advice does not constitute stalking. If you are not here to cause trouble, why do you use thinly veiled threats?

Maximus, unsolicited advice. If they were wanting the advice I'm sure they would have asked for it. Look, I have said I'm not here to cause trouble but you might want to curtail what you are doing before you wind up in a mess. This can possibly constitute cyber stalking and as a duly sworn police officer, if I have the means and opportunity, I should warn you all of this.

[The Parson]

I'm sure that you have caught the board owners attention. Is it your intention to come on this board and attempt some sort of intimidation?

No Maximus, it was my hope to stop the nonsense of trolling Bible Forums and to protect one of it's members.

[EC]

Maximus, unsolicited advice. If they were wanting the advice I'm sure they would have asked for it. Look, I have said I'm not here to cause trouble but you might want to curtail what you are doing before you wind up in a mess. This can possibly constitute cyber stalking and as a duly sworn police officer, if I have the means and opportunity, I should warn you all of this.

You are wrong about the law. The fact that you claim to be a police officer is irrelevant.

[K-Mac]

She asked for other people's thoughts in her post. It is not unsolicited, so take your bullying elsewhere.

[The Parson]

She asked for other people's thoughts in her post. It is not unsolicited, so take your bullying elsewhere.

Okey Dokey Fine folks. I see this is pointless.

[K-Mac]

Yep.

[softwareNerd]

I have PMed "Parson". I'm closing this thread.

[Maximus]

Look, I have said I'm not here to cause trouble but you might want to curtail what you are doing before you wind up in a mess. This can possibly constitute cyber stalking and as a duly sworn police officer, if I have the means and opportunity, I should warn you all of this.

In the first place, buddy-ro, I am not on your damned forum. Second, I am not intimidated by your threats. Third, you have no legal grounds to do crap.

[themadkat]

Okey Dokey Fine folks. I see this is pointless.

As pointless as us taking our point of view to your forum, anyway. What are ya'll so afraid of?

[Mammon]

You are wrong about the law. The fact that you claim to be a police officer is irrelevant.

He is right, there are cyber-stalking laws. This is really what I was trying to get at earlier about creeping the girl out. It's sad, but true. Let David handle it.

[The Parson]

As pointless as us taking our point of view to your forum, anyway. What are ya'll so afraid of?

It's really not a fear my friend. Bible Forums is there for Christians to fellowship and discuss with other Christians. It's not there for our beliefs to be debated by the athiest or agnostic. That isn't it's intention at all. To us it is a haven of sorts. Not much different really than this board in all actuality.

[JASKN]

To us it is a haven of sorts. Not much different really than this board in all actuality.

Maybe it's late and I'm grumpy, but though like minds might meet both at your board and this one, a religion like Christianity and a philosophy like Objectivism are not comparable. "Fellowship" is stealthy because it mixes a legitimate human value that is almost universally sought, socializing with people, with something that is never a value to anybody (whether people think it is valuable or not): mindless religious dogma.

[Greebo]

It's really not a fear my friend. Bible Forums is there for Christians to fellowship and discuss with other Christians. It's not there for our beliefs to be debated by the athiest or agnostic. That isn't it's intention at all. To us it is a haven of sorts. Not much different really than this board in all actuality.

Except as far as I know, we don't ban non-Objectivists. We show them our reasoning and let them decide. We even have a forum where people are welcome to attempt to disprove Objectivism. If you can provide a reasoned argument based on the facts of reality demonstrating how Objectivism is wrong and Christianity is right, then nobody here could refute you. We would be forced by our sense of reason to accept Christ, because to do anything else, once you proved yourself right, would be to evade reality, which is something we refuse to do.

While on your forum, you build walls to keep out those who think differently, so you do not have to see the terrible lies you do not want to believe. You even require someone to state their religion when signing up. Those who can provide strong arguments based on reason showing how Christianity is wrong are banished. Your members encourage people to forget reason, and to simply believe. You coerce them with threats of some eternal torture if they resist. Even the argument, "if we're right and they're wrong, you want to be in the right when you die" is nothing but a threat.

We think people are able to decide for themselves, and encourage them to do so.

You seek to shelter them and yourself from the awareness that any choice exists.

Yeah, aside from those small points, we're just the same.

[softwareNerd]

While the accusation of stalking is over the top, I quite understand his underlying point. He views his forum as a haven where like-minded people can come together to discuss things and clarify things. People who run forums get tired of opponents who come over to argue the same old viewpoints. For a religious forum, it gets tiresome for members to constantly be defending their views to atheists who come to argue with them.

To take another example, I notice that this particular religious forum has also banned discussion of whether Roman Catholic Christianity is better or worse than other denominations. Often, members tire of a particular discussion and do not want it on their forum. Even though some members may be interested in discussing the controversy, they can always find other forums that are happy to discuss it.

Doing things outside the owners forum is a different issue. People who participate on forums often use the same avatar-name elsewhere. In doing so, they open themselves up to contact. I cannot imagine how an attempt to contact a person can be considered stalking, unless one goes over the top and becomes annoying after that person tells you to buzz off. [This is not legal advice!]

Contacting such a person may be legal, and doing so outside the other forum does not breach that owner's rights. Still, I'm not sure how useful would be: in the sense of being effective activism. I suppose there's a way to do it right. Sometimes I wish there was an effective Locke-inspired religious group actively trying to break the better Christians away from the ones who are more concrete-bound in their interpretation of religion. I think such a group would have a far better chance of success.

[Jake_Ellison]

Interesting. The same God Damn Christians who are suing people over their right to go door to door Sunday morning, waking people up to sell them stories about a murderous spirit flooding the Earth with some plague every 200 years have decided that sending someone a polite message online is stalking.

If that chick wanted to stop Brian from sending her messages, she could've blocked him herself, the way it is done on this forum. There wouldn't have been any need for some crazy overbearing Jim Jones guru to step in and speak for her.

Bible Forums is there for Christians to fellowship and discuss with other Christians. It's not there for our beliefs to be debated by the athiest or agnostic. That isn't it's intention at all. To us it is a haven of sorts. Not much different really than this board in all actuality.

The difference is that if an admin from this forum showed up on yours, speaking in my name, threatening people with lawsuits in my name, I would be extremely pissed off. Of course, that would never happen.

What's that name again? I want to tell this chick what this goon is doing in her name.

Nerd, I think you should make up a rule: if the guy wants to continue discussing this, he should be allowed to, but only if the conversation is available on his forum as well. Why not allow his members to see what's going on behind the scenes?

I'd love to see how ready he is to allow the same freedoms we allow, since he claims the two forums are similar.

[brian0918]

I thought you may like to know that if Bex wanted to, you could be charged with stalking.

Huzzah! That would definitely improve my résumé.

Edited December 31, 2008 by brian0918

[softwareNerd]

Nerd, I think you should make up a rule: if the guy wants to continue discussing this, he should be allowed to, but only if the conversation is available on his forum as well. Why not allow his members to see what's going on behind the scenes? I'd love to see how ready he is to allow the same freedoms we allow, since he claims the two forums are similar.

Interesting idea, worth mulling over.

On a more positive note...

Sometimes I wish there was an effective Locke-inspired religious group actively trying to break the better Christians away from the ones who are more concrete-bound in their interpretation of religion. I think such a group would have a far better chance of success.

Turns out that there is a Deist community out there, with fairly active forums. A brief look at some posts indicates people who are pretty modern and rational, and have the right approach to the separation of church and state.

[The Parson]

While the accusation of stalking is over the top, I quite understand his underlying point. He views his forum as a haven where like-minded people can come together to discuss things and clarify things. People who run forums get tired of opponents who come over to argue the same old viewpoints. For a religious forum, it gets tiresome for members to constantly be defending their views to atheists who come to argue with them.

To take another example, I notice that this particular religious forum has also banned discussion of whether Roman Catholic Christianity is better or worse than other denominations. Often, members tire of a particular discussion and do not want it on their forum. Even though some members may be interested in discussing the controversy, they can always find other forums that are happy to discuss it.

Doing things outside the owners forum is a different issue. People who participate on forums often use the same avatar-name elsewhere. In doing so, they open themselves up to contact. I cannot imagine how an attempt to contact a person can be considered stalking, unless one goes over the top and becomes annoying after that person tells you to buzz off. [This is not legal advice!]

Contacting such a person may be legal, and doing so outside the other forum does not breach that owner's rights. Still, I'm not sure how useful would be: in the sense of being effective activism. I suppose there's a way to do it right. Sometimes I wish there was an effective Locke-inspired religious group actively trying to break the better Christians away from the ones who are more concrete-bound in their interpretation of religion. I think such a group would have a far better chance of success.

Pretty well said. And yes, outside of the forums domain we don't have a beef. It is a place for other Christians to come and nail out differences and share. But with the internet being so open, many don't seem to understand the idea of a private domain because the majority of the internet is so wide open.

Now to clarify our perception of what transpired, there are times when non believers do some pretty intensive trolling on our board. Most of them are obnoxious but one or two have actually been criminal in the "stalking" sense of the word, where I had to get directly involved with another PD to attempt to nail their hides. In this case it was a young female member who had a perv chase her all over the internet. When the heat got on him, he disappeared. Knowing that you may be able to understand somewhat why we guard Bible Forums so well.

I really appreciate your understanding in this.

Edited December 31, 2008 by The Parson

[Zip]

Now to clarify our perception of what transpired, there are times when non believers do some pretty intensive trolling on our board. Most of them are obnoxious but one or two have actually been criminal in the "stalking" since of the word, where I had to get directly involved with another PD to attempt to nail their hides. In this case it was a young female member who had a perv chase her all over the internet. When the heat got on him, he disappeared. Knowing that you may be able to understand somewhat why we guard Bible Forums so well.

I really appreciate your understanding in this.

That's pretty good police work Tex. Tell me if you see a guy wearing a blue jeans rob a liquor store do you then rush out and arrest everyone wearing blue jeans?

It's your forum, do as you please. Erect your walls and shut out the rest of the world, the idea that you think you can come in here and try to intimidate based on your position as a police officer is disgusting.

For the Objectivists in the crowd it is also a really good example of just how far from Objective law we are.

[brian0918]

Most of them are obnoxious but one or two have actually been criminal in the "stalking" sense of the word, where I had to get directly involved with another PD to attempt to nail their hides. In this case it was a young female member who had a perv chase her all over the internet. When the heat got on him, he disappeared. Knowing that you may be able to understand somewhat why we guard Bible Forums so well.

That's an interesting story. Your point? Or were you hoping to smear by association?

For the Objectivists in the crowd it is also a really good example of just how far from Objective law we are.

Good point. I could use this example in an upcoming letter to the editor or op-ed on cyber bullying.

Edited December 31, 2008 by brian0918

[DavidOdden]

Look, I have said I'm not here to cause trouble but you might want to curtail what you are doing before you wind up in a mess. This can possibly constitute cyber stalking and as a duly sworn police officer, if I have the means and opportunity, I should warn you all of this.

You probably know, then, that falsely accusing Maximus of stalking can possibly constitute defamation, which is a cause of legal action. In addition, regardless of whoever you are leveling that charge against, the charge can possibly be constitute the crime of extortion, which is typically prohibited via a law stating that "No person, with purpose to coerce another into taking or refraining from action concerning which the other person has a legal freedom of choice, shall institute or threaten criminal proceedings against any person, or take or threaten to take official action, or cause or threaten to cause official action to be taken".

There are times when anti-Objectivists do some pretty intensive trolling on our board. We find that it is not actually necessary to threaten legal action if some individual actually attempts to violate the property rights of the forum or a participant, and we tend to look objectively at the facts -- does this action constitute a violation of the other person's rights; has the other person permitted the action? Attempting to contact another person does not in and of itself constitute a violation of the other person's rights.