Is this rational?

[K-Mac]

http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=177...mp;fullscreen=1

I guess these guys have problems getting life or disability insurance. Amazing though.

[logan]

http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=177...mp;fullscreen=1

I guess these guys have problems getting life or disability insurance. Amazing though.

Very cool!!

[Hazmatac]

It's not irrational to want to experience flying. You may really enjoy the experience and get a rush.

[K-Mac]

I wonder why they bother to wear a helmet?

[SD26]

I wonder why they bother to wear a helmet?

Probably to remain conscious if your friend does a flip in the air and hits you in the head. Nothing like falling, concussed, to the ground unable to make the decision to pop a chute before you hit the ground.

Looks like fun, but it's such a short ride.

[JMeganSnow]

It's not irrational to want to experience flying. You may really enjoy the experience and get a rush.

But *why* do you want to experience flying? And why this particular method?

[aequalsa]

But *why* do you want to experience flying? And why this particular method?

For the same reason I like to experience a water slide or sex. That question about a mainly physiological, exhilerating feeling always confuses me. I gather that some people in the world don't understand the concept, "WEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!"

It's certainly possible to rationalize things like this in an intellectual way. "It is the ultimate sense of freedom!" or some such, but nothing will really do it service. It just feels good. It would be akin to explaining that I like sex "because it tickles."

It's possible with skydiving and other more dangerous extreme sports and activities, that not everyone finds them enjoyable because some process stress hormones differently.

Edited January 8, 2009 by aequalsa

[Maximus]

The older I get, the less I enjoy risky behavior. I'll stick with a good book.

[Jake_Ellison]

Depending on why and how someone is doing this type of stuff, it can be perfectly rational.

That said, from what I've seen about basejumpers, they usually aren't rational at all. Many of those who end up dying have a deathwish, or are unwilling to think the implications through (by evaluating the danger correctly, instead of evading it). For those guys it's a lot like using drugs.

For those who are doing it as a rational choice, it isn't all that dangerous at all. Well, in relative terms: it's no more dangerous than being a soldier, and no one thinks that's necessarily irrational.

In my estimation chances are that a base-jumper who is willing and able to use reason to pick his jumps can lead a long and happy life and die of old age.

[Zip]

In spite of all the risks these guys take (unnecessarily) they are obviously highly skilled and I can appreciate that.

As far as I know there is nothing wrong with pure unadulterated enjoyment.

[K-Mac]

If they don't have dependents, I'm fine with it. Just like I'm fine with a heroin junky shooting up til the day it kills him. If they're not violating anyone else's rights, who cares?

[SD26]

It's not irrational to want to experience flying. You may really enjoy the experience and get a rush.

I think the experience is "falling".

Of course, I'm a motorcycle racer. So, do I have room to talk...LOL!

[JMeganSnow]

For the same reason I like to experience a water slide or sex. That question about a mainly physiological, exhilerating feeling always confuses me. I gather that some people in the world don't understand the concept, "WEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!"

Yes, and that's the problem--there are many ways to experience a similar rush, and many, many of them don't involve the risk of becoming an undifferentiated splatter mark when you hit the ground. So why *this* rush as opposed to any *other* rush?

THAT's the question people can't answer in any rational way and WHY their activities are usually irrational. Yes, as KMac said, there's no reason why you would stop someone else from shooting up heroin, but that doesn't answer "why WOULD you do it, yourself?"

I'm not saying there's no possible answer, but I have to assume that voluntarily taking on this level of risk without an answer is definitely irrational.

[aequalsa]

Yes, and that's the problem--there are many ways to experience a similar rush, and many, many of them don't involve the risk of becoming an undifferentiated splatter mark when you hit the ground. So why *this* rush as opposed to any *other* rush?

THAT's the question people can't answer in any rational way and WHY their activities are usually irrational. Yes, as KMac said, there's no reason why you would stop someone else from shooting up heroin, but that doesn't answer "why WOULD you do it, yourself?"

I'm not saying there's no possible answer, but I have to assume that voluntarily taking on this level of risk without an answer is definitely irrational.

Most(though not all) things that seem dangerous are not really by comparison to driving. Familiarity just creates the illusion of safety in the case of driving. Some assess the risk as negligible as compared to the enjoyment the receive. The adrenaline rush is different from other types of pleasure so it is not easily replicable. One difference, of course, is that the rush diminishes with familiarity, so the envelope must be continually pushed.

[SD26]

Most(though not all) things that seem dangerous are not really by comparison to driving. Familiarity just creates the illusion of safety in the case of driving.

Totally agree. That's why I race motorcycles while I decide not to ride motorcycles on the street. Street riding is often a place where motorcycle racers get killed or seriously injured doing simple tasks.

Familiarity does become a bit "boring". Even crashing can be exciting. It's part of the game. But you're prepared for it with a mitigation of your risk: the venue, the people you race with, gear.

[JMeganSnow]

Most(though not all) things that seem dangerous are not really by comparison to driving. Familiarity just creates the illusion of safety in the case of driving.

Familiarity increases the *actual* safety, too. Most accidents involve people willfully doing incredibly unsafe things, like drinking and driving, running lights, speeding, etc. There's no reason to consider driving qua driving unsafe.

Many extreme sports are not particularly unsafe, either, because they're done with gear and preparation in a controlled environment by skilled people. Like I said, I'm not assuming it's irrational, I just want a better reason than "it feels good".

[K-Mac]

And driving is a necessity for survival in most urban and suburban areas. Just like for the caveman, spear hunting was dangerous and he could've been injured by his prey; however, in order to survive, it was a risk that he had to take. Base jumping and now this even riskier off shoot, are not necessary for survival.

EDIT: lol! Is riskier a word??

Edited January 8, 2009 by K-Mac

[aequalsa]

Familiarity increases the *actual* safety, too. Most accidents involve people willfully doing incredibly unsafe things, like drinking and driving, running lights, speeding, etc. There's no reason to consider driving qua driving unsafe.

That's true, but another factor is that in most of these activities you are primarily dependent on yourself. While driving your safety is largely dependent on all of the other idiots out there.

Many extreme sports are not particularly unsafe, either, because they're done with gear and preparation in a controlled environment by skilled people. Like I said, I'm not assuming it's irrational, I just want a better reason than "it feels good".

I see what you are asking, it's just difficult to explain. I have introspected on it a lot and the best rationalization that I have come up with is that putting everything on the line makes me feel very alive. Getting nearer to death makes life seem more precious. I think of it as being fully invested in something. It makes you care more.

Another facet is that to do things like that well, it is necessary to be very much in the moment. So there is that feeling of zen-like clarity where everything else loses it's significance.

[SD26]

Base jumping and now this even riskier off shoot, are not necessary for survival.

Unless that's how you make your living.

[K-Mac]

So then the question becomes, for me anyway, is your life so boring and unfulfilling (or whatever) that you must experience near-death or death-defying situations to feel alive? (If so, I find that incredibly sad.)

Unless that's how you make your living.

There are many ways to make a living that don't necessarily involve a high risk of getting killed or seriously injured.

As I stated above, as long as these guys don't have dependents, I don't really care what they do or whether or not they get paid for it. I just have a hard time finding any reason for it other than it probably feels good. (And that's not necessarily a good reason to be doing something.) What these guys are doing certainly looks cool, I'll give em that.

[aequalsa]

So then the question becomes, for me anyway, is your life so boring and unfulfilling (or whatever) that you must experience near-death or death-defying situations to feel alive? (If so, I find that incredibly sad.)

Not at all. I have more going on in my life right now then I can handle. In fact, too much to have time left for many hobbies, unfortunately.

See, I knew i would get into trouble trying to explain a feeling that is closer to a sensation then an emotion. I prefaced my comments by calling them rationalizations to ward this off. Megan asked why it was enjoyable beyond the fact that it "feels good." What you are referencing is my answer. Also the second facet can't be ignored. It's because I do have so much going on that the mental simplicity of dangerous activities have appeal.

Things that are difficult and dangerous make me feel more focused. More acute, I guess. To me, this hyper awareness and full engagement makes life seem like more no matter where you start from.

Ok, let me try again. When many people go on roller coasters they experience this same thing. The feeling of danger with the knowledge that you will be safe as an underlayment. In that case you are trusting the engineers, builders and repair technicians. In base jumping, or free climbing, or full contact fighting, or motorcycle racing or whatever, you are trusting your own capacities. So say I'm hanging by 3 fingers and one toe from a rock 130' in the air. The risk is there if i fail, but i know that I won't fail.

So the important parts of life to me, the things I value most are my minds ability to focus, integration of myself, and my efficaciousness. The feeling of those things is what life feels like it should mostly be about, for me. An activity which requires that my mind is completely aware and focused, my emotions(fear) are held in check and overcome, and my body is doing what I tell it to do feels like total integration. Everything fits together like at no other time. So it fees good.

Does that make more sense?

[SD26]

So then the question becomes, for me anyway, is your life so boring and unfulfilling (or whatever) that you must experience near-death or death-defying situations to feel alive? (If so, I find that incredibly sad.)

There are many ways to make a living that don't necessarily involve a high risk of getting killed or seriously injured.

As I stated above, as long as these guys don't have dependents, I don't really care what they do or whether or not they get paid for it. I just have a hard time finding any reason for it other than it probably feels good. (And that's not necessarily a good reason to be doing something.) What these guys are doing certainly looks cool, I'll give em that.

Boring and unfulfilling is everywhere. Even in "extreme sports" for some when they have met their individual challenges. Just like when one has invented everything one has wanted develop. Either way, it is a personal achievement. Faster lap times, more flips, faster computer speeds, more sales, a better steel. I've felt the achievement in finishing the fiscal year with big business growth and a similar feeling in a championship. I've been bored while winning a race too when there is no strong competition to push me further. Similarly, some things are easy to sell to customers when there is no other competitive product.

Each has to decide on their risk. A simple race doesn't involve a lot of one's competitors getting killed during a season as it was decades ago when road course racing was actually on open street circuits compared to the purpose built facilities of today. I did race on two street courses in the US, Park City, UT and Steamboat, CO, and there is certainly a lot more risk there. One needs to calculate things a little differently there to mitigate the risk to whatever standard one is comfortable with.

Hey, even in scuba diving, one should learn and use dive charts...or risk death.

[SD26]

Things that are difficult and dangerous make me feel more focused. More acute, I guess. To me, this hyper awareness and full engagement makes life seem like more no matter where you start from.

Ok, let me try again. When many people go on roller coasters they experience this same thing. The feeling of danger with the knowledge that you will be safe as an underlayment. In that case you are trusting the engineers, builders and repair technicians. In base jumping, or free climbing, or full contact fighting, or motorcycle racing or whatever, you are trusting your own capacities. So say I'm hanging by 3 fingers and one toe from a rock 130' in the air. The risk is there if i fail, but i know that I won't fail.

So the important parts of life to me, the things I value most are my minds ability to focus, integration of myself, and my efficaciousness. The feeling of those things is what life feels like it should mostly be about, for me. An activity which requires that my mind is completely aware and focused, my emotions(fear) are held in check and overcome, and my body is doing what I tell it to do feels like total integration. Everything fits together like at no other time. So it fees good.

I'll agree with the feeling on the bike side too, and I'm expecting that there are similarities.

In the end, I'm responsible. I make the decision. Where, when, how, how much faster? Can I do this? Can I do it better?

That confidence of self bleeds into other things that I do too. I don't need to be scared of certain situations. I am in control. If I have a problem with a job, a project or whatever, I focus myself into that calmness of what "being on the edge" is like. That quiet moment where time stands still and things are just about what things are and executing things as they should be with a finite movement or calculation. Clarity of surroundings and reality are the result.

[aequalsa]

I'll agree with the feeling on the bike side too, and I'm expecting that there are similarities.

Oh, I should clarify that I've hardly ever sat on a motorcycle. I just assumed it was similar, so thanks for corroberating.

In the end, I'm responsible. I make the decision. Where, when, how, how much faster? Can I do this? Can I do it better?

That confidence of self bleeds into other things that I do too. I don't need to be scared of certain situations. I am in control. If I have a problem with a job, a project or whatever, I focus myself into that calmness of what "being on the edge" is like. That quiet moment where time stands still and things are just about what things are and executing things as they should be with a finite movement or calculation. Clarity of surroundings and reality are the result.

The "bleed through" is another great point. It does seem like these kind of challenges have a pretty long carryover, emotionally speaking.

I hate treading into these waters philosophically. It's like trying to describe what sex feels like. No matter how you try it comes out sounding incomplete.

[K-Mac]

So I guess it boils down to different strokes for different folks? I don't need to unnecessarily risk my life to appreciate, respect or enjoy life or "the good", but evidently, some do. At least they provide entertainment for the rest of us.

Edited January 9, 2009 by K-Mac