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Rogue

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So my father is a very ardent Ayn Rand admirer and a strong Objectivist and believes strongly in an inherent immorality of the public schools system and I was just curious if this is just him or a common feeling amongst Objectivists. I am also trying to reason out my opinion on it, which is difficult when you are raised always just assuming the good of "public education" "charity" "welfare" and only recently having come upon Objectivism I'm trying to reapply this philosophy to all the things I've grown up thinking.

So I was just wondering how an Objectivist looks at public education?

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Education should not be public. You are forced to pay for something that you may not even want (you might prefer to send your kids to a private school, homeschool or you may not even have kids), you have little or no choice about which school your children have to go to and little to no influence on the curriculum.

Ultimately, it all comes down to public education using force to make people do things they normally would not choose to do.

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My husband and I had a really hard time understanding this when we first were exposed to Objectivism as well.

We felt that since we had so many kids, we had no issues paying taxes since our kids were getting an education. However, some very patient Objectivists pointed out (as stated above) that it is wrong because the money was forcefully taken. Another thing to consider is that public education takes the choice and will of the parent out of the equation. When you send your child to public school, you have absolutely no choice in what or how they are educated for the most part. Even if you attend PTA meetings, school board meetings, etc., YOUR rights of how you want YOUR child educated can be ruled out. Which is very frustrating.

Personally, I would voluntarily pay fees for my kids who are in public schools, and for using the public library and park systems in our city because we do use them. However, what about those that don't get the benefit from these services? Is it right that my neighbor who has no children help chip in so my 3 kids in public school (and one at a local community college) get educated? No it isn't - hey if they want to chip in, great - but no one asks, they are just told. And if they don't pay these taxes, they would lose their home, regardless of whether they own it outright or not. If that is not taking money by force - I don't know what is!

Having said that though - there isn't anything immoral about Objectivist parents sending their kids to public schools. Most cannot afford private schools because of all the taxes they have to dish out, so they have to use what is available to them. I currently have 3 kids in public schools, 1 that just started a county community college, and just pulled 1 out that we are home schooling. I don't feel guilty in the least sending any of them to public school (though I would prefer private or home school) because we have paid so much in taxes in the last 10 years that more than covers their education.

Edited by SherryTX
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The concept "public" refers to three different things w.r.t. education -- all of which our governmental schools get wrong. First is funding, by taxation. Second is content, by government regulation. Third is right to attend, whereby all children have a presumptive "right" to this entitlement. Funding should be voluntary, content is properly a contractual matter between the organization and the parent, and right-to-resource properly should be deniable at whim by the provider (since it is his property).

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Consider what has already been said in the thread and how it jives with the first amendment. Freedom of speech means the freedom to voice ideas. Just as importantly (maybe more importantly, considering the topic of the thread), it means the freedom to withhold support from ideas you don't agree with. Public schooling will always force some segment of the population or another to support notions they think are false.

Evolution vs new earth creationism is a good example of this. Pick either one; you're going to violate somebody's first amendment right in a public system with this question alone. Now make countless decisions for every subject and every grade from kindergarten to college.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Another argument against public education is that it will be used, by both regular citizens and members of the government, to limit freedom of speech on any issue, the same way, if on a smaller scale, that government power is used in totalitarian nations to get rid of people who disagree with the majority:

Teacher placed on leave for questionable Facebook posting. [my comment: questionable here is meant to say she took a picture with a gun. Not at all questionable, since she was at home, and most Americans have guns at home]

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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By the way, the correct term for the government-run educational system is "government schools." "Public education" is a euphemism much like the term "people's" which attempts to mask the essential nature of state-run schools.

The One Minute Case For Privatizing Education

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I have some questions regarding this topic.

first, is education not a right? public schools, as far as i know, were set up so that everyone would atleast have a chance at an education. i would think that we are all entitled to an education because it trains us to think, which we must do to live.

then, how do we insure that everyone gets an education without a public school system? i understand that you then choose a school, and that if you dont have enough money, another school will open and cost less(offer the best education for the lowest price). but what about all the families who dont pay taxes, and yet they still have children going to school? how do we make sure that the families barely surviving get an education?

im just wondering, if there were no public school systems, how do we make sure that everyone gets an education?

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No, education is not a right. That would mean that others have an unchosen duty to educate you and that you have the right to force others to educate you. Besides, how much education do you have a 'right' to? Just literacy and basic arithmetics? Two Ph.D.'s? As much as you want, with others being forced to pay the bill?

Second, if you can't afford to send your children to school, you shouldn't have children. If you have them anyway, you can have them adopted by a childless but wealthy couple who'd send them to school. If you are too attached to your children or your financial mess was unforeseen, you could ask for donations on behalf of your children. There may even be private schools who take students pro bono.

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first, is education not a right? public schools, as far as i know, were set up so that everyone would atleast have a chance at an education. i would think that we are all entitled to an education because it trains us to think, which we must do to live.
That is not what "right" refers to. A right refers to a basic fact about man's survival. An education might be "a good thing", but the only right involved ith education is that you have the right to receive an education if you want one, if you can find someone who will provide that education. The goal is not to ensure that everybody receives an education, it is to end the use of violence in the name of providing an education.
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Current public "education" systems are in fact obstacles to teaching children how to think.

And that's the way the government wants it. Sheep are easier to control than wolves. I went through the public educational system through High School, but in the sixties and early seventies, when the control was at the local level (before that pussy Carter created the Dept. of Education - an unconstitutional function of the Federal government). I recieved a much better education than children are getting today. And, no gangs or violence either.

Edited by Maximus
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first, is education not a right? public schools, as far as i know, were set up so that everyone would atleast have a chance at an education. i would think that we are all entitled to an education because it trains us to think, which we must do to live.

then, how do we insure that everyone gets an education without a public school system?

You should not ask a question when you've already made up your mind about the subject. You ask whether education is not a right, then go on to ask how we can educate everyone. I hope you see the problem. You assume educating everyone is a duty of everyone else.

It is in my best interests that people be educated, however, for various reasons. This is true of just aout everyone else, too. But that doesn't mean those seeking an education ahve a right to force me to provide them with the means for obtaining it. So to answer your question: you appeal to peole's self-interest.

Point out exactly how others benefit from having a well-educated population. then ask for donations to eductae those who can't afford to. If it's in my best interest, I should be willing to contribute freely

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Rogue, I suggest you listen to Lisa VanDamme's lecture, Reclaiming Education (among others, her stuff is good...see http://www.aynrandbookstore2.com/products....n=&sort_by= ) That particular lecture helped me understand how the government school I attended, failed me miserably. (And I went to "one of the best" school districts in the Houston area.) :huh:

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Regarding how people are to educate their children if there are no public schools and they cannot afford private - its called home schooling.

Plenty of people in the US (and world) are doing it currently for one reason or another. And for many years before their were schools in American communities, that is what families did.

If (and I DOUBT this will ever happen) the US finally woke up and realized that education and is NOT a right and did away with it, there are are plenty of reasources for parents to use to to put a curriculum together if they don't have the money for private schools or to purchase one. And there are already homeschooling groups in place to help with this, etc. etc. So even those without the money to send them to private school don't have to fear for the education of their children really.

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I blogged about this late last year, this is the article that got me started...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/c...ticle706239.ece

"A fisherman with an understanding of economics that would put union officials to shame, who had moved his daughter from state to private school, told me that the private school proprietor needed to satisfy parents like him, otherwise he would go out of business. “That’s why the teachers turn up and teach,” he told me, “because they are closely supervised.”

One father, living in the Kenyan slum of Kibera, summarised it like this: “If you go to a market and are offered free fruit and vegetables, you know they’ll be rotten. If you want fresh produce, you have to pay for it.”

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