What's the use?

[NewbieOist]

This country is so screwed. The causes of our problems are misidentified in the culture, the government's "solutions" will only make things worse. People like me who know nothing about farming and self-sustainable living aren't long for the coming new world. There's no point in trying anymore.

[Mimpy]

This is a very pessimistic view. It is also not accurate. The culture needs to be changed. It still can be done. While I agree that it has taken a turn for the worse, it is certainly not irreversible. As long as ideas are not dead, there is still a potential to change the culture.

To make this happen, do something about it. Pessimism will get you nowhere. Write letters to the editor. Encourage your family, friends, and co-workers to read Atlas Shrugged. Donate money to the Ayn Rand Institute. Write to your congressman.

There are plenty of things you can do to turn this world into the kind of world you want to live in.

[NewbieOist]

This is a very pessimistic view. It is also not accurate. The culture needs to be changed. It still can be done. While I agree that it has taken a turn for the worse, it is certainly not irreversible. As long as ideas are not dead, there is still a potential to change the culture.

To make this happen, do something about it. Pessimism will get you nowhere. Write letters to the editor. Encourage your family, friends, and co-workers to read Atlas Shrugged. Donate money to the Ayn Rand Institute. Write to your congressman.

There are plenty of things you can do to turn this world into the kind of world you want to live in.

I don't think the culture can change before things fall apart. There's not much time left. I don't see things holding for longer than five years.

[softwareNerd]

I don't think the culture can change before things fall apart. There's not much time left. I don't see things holding for longer than five years.

How bad do you expect it to get? What concretes are you thinking of? After all, let's say we double the debt and inflation goes to twice its norm, and healthcare is nationalized, we'll still be far ahead -- in terms of pure wealth -- than many other times and places in modern history. Are you expecting something worse? If so, why?

Or are you speaking of the direction in which we're headed, rather than that actual depth we'll reach?

[NewbieOist]

How bad do you expect it to get? What concretes are you thinking of? After all, let's say we double the debt and inflation goes to twice its norm, and healthcare is nationalized, we'll still be far ahead -- in terms of pure wealth -- than many other times and places in modern history. Are you expecting something worse? If so, why?

Or are you speaking of the direction in which we're headed, rather than that actual depth we'll reach?

As for concretes, what I'm thinking of is riots, shortages, and double-digit unemployment.

As for the argument that we would still be far ahead in terms of pure wealth, consider this: This country was better off than most at the beginning of the twentieth century, but who among us now would manage if we were transported then? For instance, my computer programming skills, which are all that's keeping me afloat now, would be useless. That's my worry: that technology will regress because we can't afford it anymore, and where will I be?

[NewbieOist]

Oh, and there's the other factor that the Chinese practically own us now thanks to our borrowing from them. What will happen if we can't pay them back? Do they take over our country? I know it sounds like paranoid fantasizing, but after the extraordinary events in recent months, I'm not sure what is and isn't possible anymore.

[gags]

Oh, and there's the other factor that the Chinese practically own us now thanks to our borrowing from them. What will happen if we can't pay them back? Do they take over our country? I know it sounds like paranoid fantasizing, but after the extraordinary events in recent months, I'm not sure what is and isn't possible anymore.

The Chinese really own a bunch of pieces of paper that we sold them. The way things are headed, we're going to be paying them back with inflated dollars that are worth far less than their current value.

[NewbieOist]

The Chinese really own a bunch of pieces of paper that we sold them. The way things are headed, we're going to be paying them back with inflated dollars that are worth far less than their current value.

And that's supposed to be comforting how?

[Grames]

This country is so screwed. The causes of our problems are misidentified in the culture, the government's "solutions" will only make things worse. People like me who know nothing about farming and self-sustainable living aren't long for the coming new world. There's no point in trying anymore.

Can I have all your stuff then?

[gags]

And that's supposed to be comforting how?

It's not particularly comforting, but our owing the Chinese a lot of cash really isn't the end of the world.

[SD26]

This country is so screwed. The causes of our problems are misidentified in the culture, the government's "solutions" will only make things worse. People like me who know nothing about farming and self-sustainable living aren't long for the coming new world. There's no point in trying anymore.

Well, if you're inadequate in those things. Start learning.

Yeah, I recognize what you're stating. But my dad grew up in the 30's and 40's on a farm in Nebraska with no electricity and no indoor plumbing. FDR paid people to come to our family farm to plant trees to protect the land from the Dust Bowl problems. Kind of sounds like infrastructure and global warming stuff today. Yes, they had times when there were actually hungry. But they were strong, they survived.

I don't expect the solutions to fix anything either, but until there's a correction that puts some rationality back into people on how government should not work, things won't get any better. They can pass all the stupid stuff they want. In two years, there's another election. Similarly, there's a governor election here in Wisconsin.

Time to not be a "common man" but to go out an learn how to be an "uncommon one". Drive, desire, intent, honesty, integrity... My dad was never very well educated formally, but I so valued him in wisdom. I think that was the uncommon part of him that I recognized.

[Old Toad]

This country is so screwed. The causes of our problems are misidentified in the culture, the government's "solutions" will only make things worse. People like me who know nothing about farming and self-sustainable living aren't long for the coming new world. There's no point in trying anymore.

For inspiration:

...She glanced up suddenly. "Dagny, how did you do it? How did you manage to remain unmangled?"

"By holding to just one rule."

"Which?"

"To place nothing—nothing—above the verdict of my own mind."

"You've taken some terrible beatings … maybe worse than I did … worse than any of us.… What held you through it?"

"The knowledge that my life is the highest of values, too high to give up without a fight."

—Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

[softwareNerd]

As for concretes, what I'm thinking of is riots, shortages, and double-digit unemployment.

Why would there be riots and shortages (I assume you mean shortages of things like food). What would lead to that? I don't see any reason to think that is a possibility in my lifetime.

[NewbieOist]

Why would there be riots and shortages (I assume you mean shortages of things like food). What would lead to that? I don't see any reason to think that is a possibility in my lifetime.

Riots I can definitely see happening due to high unemployment.

I guess I feel like everything I said is inevitable, even if I can't explain precisely why, because what else do you expect in a country that's trillions of dollars in debt with no way out in the foreseeable future? Especially now that people will have even less money to pay off their debts than they did before.

[softwareNerd]

Riots I can definitely see happening due to high unemployment.

it seems there are riots in Paris every few years. Under Thatcher, there was a huge strike and garbage piled up in the streets. There were large riots in the U.S. in the civil war years. Still, food did not go short, nor did people need to become farmers.

I grew up in a third world country, and I cannot see how it is possible for the U.S. to even sink to what I considered "middle class" when I was growing up. Things are bad, but one also has to keep things in perspective. Unrealistic pessimism is just as false as unrealistic optimism. Both can lead one to make wrong decisions.

[Jake_Ellison]

As for concretes, what I'm thinking of is riots, shortages, and double-digit unemployment.

There could be riots, and there could be 10-12% unemployment in six, seven years, sure. I'm not saying there will be, but it's quite possible. However, none of this should affect you all that much if:

1. you move to the suburbs

2. you make sure you're in the top 88% most useful employees.

Neither one of those should be that difficult that it warrants the phrase "What's the use?".

The fact is that for now we have it better than pretty much any generation in the human race's long history, and we have a very good chance to turn this little flare-up of socialism, which comes on the heels of a disastrous Republican Presidency, around. Does it frustrate me that this crisis will bring technological advances to a standstill for a few years? Sure. But quite frankly, I'm still more worried about the religious nutjobs taking over the Republican party than I am about these clowns that came into power for a few years with Obama.

And above all, I reserve the right to choose my home. While the US still has the greatest chance to remain a country in which one can be happy, there are other countries with that potential in the world, and I don't really have a problem with learning a new language or adapting to a different climate. I'm confident that I'd be welcome pretty much anywhere, because I have plenty of knowledge and ability to trade. If most Americans wish to live in tyranny, they're welcome to it. They'll find that those they are planning to exploit are the people who tend to have the option to move.

[NewbieOist]

There could be riots, and there could be 10-12% unemployment in six, seven years, sure.

In my state, California, we already have double-digit unemployment, so I doubt it will take that long to spread to the rest of the country.

And above all, I reserve the right to choose my home. While the US still has the greatest chance to remain a country in which one can be happy, there are other countries with that potential in the world, and I don't really have a problem with learning a new language or adapting to a different climate. I'm confident that I'd be welcome pretty much anywhere, because I have plenty of knowledge and ability to trade. If most Americans wish to live in tyranny, they're welcome to it. They'll find that those they are planning to exploit are the people who tend to have the option to move.

Good for you. I have Asperger's syndrome and have never even left my county on my own, so I'm pretty much stuck where I am for the next few years. I don't think I would ever have the socializing capacity to go to another the country.

[Capitalism Forever]

Why would there be riots and shortages (I assume you mean shortages of things like food). What would lead to that? I don't see any reason to think that is a possibility in my lifetime.

With President Obama in charge, everything is possible! But I agree that it isn't very probable.

[softwareNerd]

CF, You're not helping here, buddy!

In my state, California, we already have double-digit unemployment, so I doubt it will take that long to spread to the rest of the country.

Good for you. I have Asperger's syndrome and have never even left my county on my own, so I'm pretty much stuck where I am for the next few years. I don't think I would ever have the socializing capacity to go to another the country.

Well, moving out of the country is a huge jump; however, one has to be ready to move around within the U.S., within one's field (e.g. learning a different, but related, skill), and possibly even into a new field.

Also, it seems to me that a lot of the disappointment and distress that people feel is about reality as contrasted with what they think could be. Yet, people who are far worse off -- in terms of real wealth -- can, and often do, live happy lives. That's something one needs to ponder over and bring to some resolution for oneself.

[Capitalism Forever]

there are other countries with that potential in the world, and I don't really have a problem with learning a new language or adapting to a different climate.

That's what I thought too, until I went to work in London. I've learned English, I'm pretty good at German, I've been successful in studying Japanese ... but there's no way in the world I'll ever understand Cockney! And it's not just that they pronounce things differently, the words have different meanings, too--for example, "a beautiful summer day" translates as "63 degrees and mostly cloudy."

But of course, if you want to go to a country where you can be free, as opposed to seeing pictures of freedom in the museums, then sadly, Britain is not on your list anyway.

[bluey]

I guess I feel like everything I said is inevitable, even if I can't explain precisely why, because what else do you expect in a country that's trillions of dollars in debt with no way out in the foreseeable future? Especially now that people will have even less money to pay off their debts than they did before.

You might feel better about it if you look at what's actually happening and what's actually likely to happen. If you can pinpoint an actual risk that is relevant to *you*, you can do things now to mitigate that. For example - you have technological skills and you're worried that if there's a significant recession they would be obsolete and you'd be screwed. But what are the chances that absolutely all technology is going to be lost within your lifetime? Is there a more basic level of skills you can begin to master now that you could use if you ever had to? Maybe you could learn about electricity, surely you don't think it's possible that the entire United States will be reduced to a pre-electric state in the next 5 - 10 years (and if you are worried about that, you need to take a closer look at reality instead of just being pointlessly pessimistic).

I'd also suggest that you practice thinking about yourself as an individual and your problems as they specifically pertain to you. You say "people will have even less money to pay off their debts than they did before". Do you have less money to pay off your debts than before? Can you get rid of your debts before that could become a problem for you? If you don't have debt then it doesn't matter so much whether everyone else in the country does (except to put you in a stronger relative position), and if you do have debt then it wouldn't matter if nobody else did. Consumer debt, despite the language the media uses to frame the problem, is not something we can all be screwed by - other people's debt is not a threat to you. If you're just talking about federal debt then that's not really something you can take action on right now so you shouldn't worry about it, just develop your own skills in rational ways and you'll be able to adjust to whatever happens.

[Capitalism Forever]

CF, You're not helping here, buddy!

OK, I'll shut up.

[adrock3215]

This country is so screwed. The causes of our problems are misidentified in the culture, the government's "solutions" will only make things worse. People like me who know nothing about farming and self-sustainable living aren't long for the coming new world. There's no point in trying anymore.

This is a ridiculous post, and the attitude displayed is at least partially the reason why Objectivism is not taken seriously. Doomsday predictions, which are more common in Libertarian circles, are absurd hyperbole. Whatever is happening in the political realm is nothing compared to what is occuring in the intellectual realm, notably, in universities. Politics is absolutely the wrong focal point for any rational individual.

[Jake_Ellison]

That's what I thought too, until I went to work in London. I've learned English, I'm pretty good at German, I've been successful in studying Japanese ... but there's no way in the world I'll ever understand Cockney! And it's not just that they pronounce things differently, the words have different meanings, too--for example, "a beautiful summer day" translates as "63 degrees and mostly cloudy."

But of course, if you want to go to a country where you can be free, as opposed to seeing pictures of freedom in the museums, then sadly, Britain is not on your list anyway.

Yeah, Britain sucks in so many ways besides the weather, and it's going to get worse. (though the worst place in Europe has to be Italy at the moment)

But there's Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Ireland, Finland, Singapore(made the list because it has an amazing economy), Slovenia (unusual choice, but I've heard great things) etc.

P.S. It of course goes without saying that the US is still at the top of that list, with a huge lead.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Jake_Ellison

[JMartins]

Yeah, Britain sucks in so many ways besides the weather, and it's going to get worse. (though the worst place in Europe has to be Italy at the moment)

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that Italy is the worst? I'm not familiar with it myself, but will be visiting there for the first time in September.