What do you feel when you talk to collectivists?

[Randroid]

Emotions are, as we know, subconscious evaluations; an automatic response that reflects rational judgement.

So, when you encounter a dyed-in-the-wool collectivist, what do you feel?

The reason I'm asking is this: I'd expect the "default" reaction to be anger, irritation, aggression, annoyance, chagrin, infuriation, vexation or anything else your Thesaurus can come up with.

I don't. Well, I do feel that way when I talk to someone who is well-meaning but horribly misguided, like people who want to ban smoking in restaurants. But when I talk to a hardcore collectivist, I feel fear. Really. Fast heartbeat, queasy stomach, weak knees, shaky hands... the whole nine yards. It's not that their physical presence threatens me - I have the same reaction when I watch a Marxist video on YouTube.

"It is the responsibility of the rational mind to explore any emotion that is unaccounted for, and check its validity against the facts of reality."

I can certainly understand this emotion. After all, this is a person who wishes slavery and death on all men, including myself. But I still wonder why my reaction is different. Is it because they are impervious to reason? Do I just not have enough experience with adrenaline?

What are your opinions and how do you feel?

[Zip]

In a perfect world the only thing I would feel would be recoil.

Just kidding.

Loathing is what I feel.

[01503]

Loathing is what I feel.

Agreed. Especially since they are never going to change their ways, meaning that they are not thinking.

[Pokarrin]

I just finished reading the last chapter of my textbook for a Comparative Religions class I'm taking (it seemed like a good idea at the time). It was full of some of the most ridiculous collectivist crap I've ever encountered, an unholy alliance of the Religious Right and the Bleeding-Heart, Liberal Left at their respective worst. I actually felt physically ill reading it. I don't know if that counts as an emotion or not, but that's what I felt.

[Jake_Ellison]

So, when you encounter a dyed-in-the-wool collectivist, what do you feel?

I might feel frustration, but mainly a sense of urgency to move on to a topic that's going to further whatever the purpose of the encounter is. I definitely don't hate or loath most people around me, just because they're not Objectivists.

I might grow to hate someone who sees it as his purpose to convince me or impose his ideas on me, but beyond that I'm not emotional about people's ideology.

[John McVey]

I don't have any set automatic response other than a sense of definite disagreement, because the proper response to someone depends on the person and their context.

If I think some collectivist is intelligent and honest (they do exist), then while I will (and have) furrowed my eyebrows a little I'll likely start a proper discussion. What happens after that is dependent on where the discussion goes and how my judgement of their character changes this way and that upon presentment of facts.

If they're belligerent about it, or condescending, or dismissive, or degenerate into ad hominem, or they engage in any other indicators of dishonesty, then I just get annoyed at a waste of my time then either let rip a good sledging and/or walk away. I am not concerned why they are being dishonest; they are adults and I expect them to use reason. If they don't, screw'em. Thereafter I don't think of them at all, and I feel nothing.

JJM

[watson]

I don't have any set automatic response other than a sense of definite disagreement, because the proper response to someone depends on the person and their context.

If I think some collectivist is intelligent and honest (they do exist), then while I will (and have) furrowed my eyebrows a little I'll likely start a proper discussion. What happens after that is dependent on where the discussion goes and how my judgement of their character changes this way and that upon presentment of facts.

If they're belligerent about it, or condescending, or dismissive, or degenerate into ad hominem, or they engage in any other indicators of dishonesty, then I just get annoyed at a waste of my time then either let rip a good sledging and/or walk away. I am not concerned why they are being dishonest; they are adults and I expect them to use reason. If they don't, screw'em. Thereafter I don't think of them at all, and I feel nothing.

JJM

how did you feel when you wrote the post?

[Zip]

I definitely don't hate or loath most people around me, just because they're not Objectivists.

I might grow to hate someone who sees it as his purpose to convince me or impose his ideas on me, but beyond that I'm not emotional about people's ideology.

Nor do I hate or Loath "most people around me".

The question was about "dyed-in-the-wool"/"hardcore" collectivist, quite frankly most people are ideological mush, for them I reserve judgment on an individual basis.

However for the Che Guevara worshiping, whining, sniveling socialist types, they get and deserve my loathing. That is not to say that I categorize based on a snap decision, I always endeavor to judge based on the facts of reality.

Peoples ideology does and should elicit an emotional response otherwise the proven pedophile, the acknowledged racist and the raving communist would elicit the same emotional response as every one of you good people, and that would be wrong to the point of evil.

*edited for punctuation and clarity

Edited March 2, 2009 by Zip

[brian0918]

I recoil in horror. Seeing someone wish their children and grandchildren into future slavery, in exchange for an easier life today, I think you'll understand why I have been labeling collectivists' suggestions as "monstrous". That's the only word for it.

Edited March 2, 2009 by brian0918

[flatlander]

My response to collectivists depends on whether I am faced with a collectivist who is fully versed in all of the ideology at an intellectual level (the Tooheys and Floyd Ferrises of the world) and pursues the collectivist agenda purposefully; or someone who simply absorbed collectivism by default (a typical product of public schools and leftist media) and simply runs with the herd.

My response to the former: complete revulsion and seething anger. This type of collectivist is the personification of evil, and is not to be dealt with on any level except as a sworn enemy. Is the willful promotion of evil tantamount to the initiation of force against all free individuals?

My response to the latter: aghast disappointment mixed with sadness and maybe even resignation. How can this person not see the evil that the collectivists are feeding them?

It is very rare that I encounter the first type, most collectivists I meet are of the second type. I can deal with them, even be friendly (but guarded) towards them, depending on how mixed their premises are.

[K-Mac]

I think I feel everything you said in your post, including fear. It usually depends on who the person is, what they're saying, etc., but I think it's possible and normal to feel a mix of several negative emotions when talking to someone that threatens your very being.

[JMeganSnow]

Me, I feel nothing. Why should I be afraid? Their ideas are hopelessly impotent. The only time I get worried is when I have to deal with a clear and present danger, such as a government agency or someone else with the immediate power to enforce their wishes.

[Maximus]

I feel exasperation that people can be such idiots.

[John McVey]

how did you feel when you wrote the post?

Essentially, I didn't. If I did feel anything I don't recall it. Looking back at what Randroid wrote, I am annoyed about the choice of nick than have any other feeling. Beyond that, I have no real emotion that is worth discussing because it relates to psychology. Not going there; it's improper, and I couldn't be stuffed anyway.

The strongest I ever felt when faced IRL with a dyed-in-the-wool type was akin to "What f'n drugs are you on?" The feeling lasted but a few seconds before feeling evaporated and turned into nothing whatever.

I reserve my fury for out and out loonie religious types. Sometimes their antics gives me the proverbial RCOB moment.

JJM

[D'kian]

Frustarttion, tending towards exasperation and anger.

It's not so much the arguments they use, those are easy to puncture. What gets me is they invent facts to suit their arguments. Like the moron who told me the US dind't invade Afghanistan, but was invited by the Afghan government to deal with the Taliban. That's like saying the Allies didn't invade Germany, but were invited by the German government to deal with the nazis.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

Me, I feel nothing. Why should I be afraid? Their ideas are hopelessly impotent. The only time I get worried is when I have to deal with a clear and present danger, such as a government agency or someone else with the immediate power to enforce their wishes.

Well those ideas just spent over a trillion dollars of your money and elected a president. Impotent to do good, certainly. Far from impotent to cause harm.

[JMeganSnow]

Well those ideas just spent over a trillion dollars of your money and elected a president. Impotent to do good, certainly. Far from impotent to cause harm.

They couldn't spend that money OR elect a president without the voluntary submission of better men. The words that these people utter have no more consequence than foul-smelling wind.

[K-Mac]

How can you feel nothing? I think that's a valid question in and of itself since everything makes you feel something, but more specifically, how can you feel nothing while witnessing what these types of people are doing to our country right now?

I thought about this thread last night at the debate between Onkar Ghate and Dr. Huemer (CU Philosophy professor) last night up in Boulder. Dr. Huemer made me feel annoyed, frustrated, angry and confused. Although I didn't feel any fear of him, I did feel a bit of fear and pity when I realized all the students his screwed up philosophy is influencing. My fiancee said he felt a weary disgust. That's a good description!

[Lazariun]

As others have said, for me, it depends on the context.

I'd say that I have been in turn frustrated, amused, bilious, symapthetic and enraged by collectivists at various times. Usually it has to do with how deluded they are and just what they are professing exactly. Some, like my mom, would never intentionally hurt a maggot, but believe that coddling and helping are cut from the same cloth. Others will try and start up conversations at a coffee shop where I'm playing Monopoly with a friend and talk about how it's the perfect illustration of what would happen under "rampant unregulated Capitalism"; to these sorts I can only smile wryly and say, "Oh really?".

I can't say I've really ever met any Tooheys, unless you consider religious nuts so deluded by their own belief in a transcendent world that they're willing to take anyone with them. These I just avoid, because reasoning with them is like trying to reason with a rabid dog.

I've met quite a few Attilas, nihilists and pragmatists in my time though. These people can really frustrate me, and sometimes I feel like showing them the results of their beliefs on a personal level, first-hand.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Lazariun

[JMeganSnow]

How can you feel nothing?

How can you feel anything for someone who has, by their own choice, rendered themselves into the equivalent of a sponge?

I suppose that if you're a really excessively benevolent person that *really* likes other people, you might think "geez, what a waste of human potential!". If you make the mistake of trying to argue with them, I can see how you might get frustrated or angry. Me, I don't bother to do that; I've found that the best thing to do is simply to disagree loudly and definitively and move on. You might argue with them if you gain some value from chewing your own ideas thoroughly in that fashion, but after a while this becomes pointless, too, because you've seen all the arguments 500 times in just about every possible variation and you can dismiss them utterly without having to think much about it.

Otherwise, my emotional connection with these subhumans is the same as the one I have with scunge that grows on the toilet. I don't get mad about it, I just scrub it off and flush.

[fountainhead777]

I also feel indifferent to these people. There may occasionally be spikes of anger but not too much. Ive been frustrated or confused when people close to me choose irrational values but i moved on and am better for it.

[themadkat]

Me, I get resentful. They want to keep me from doing something, achieving something, that I should be able to do. In the immortal words of Galt, "Get the hell out of my way!"

[JMeganSnow]

Fortunately "want to" and "are" are different things. Whew. Like I said, there's a big difference between dealing with some ordinary crackpot and dealing with someone with actual authority. If you run afoul of the latter, it's time to pull out all the stops.

[JASKN]

I feel sorry for them. Like Jenni said, their ideas are hopeless.

I do get scared of idiots who don't care. Welfare neighborhoods are currently my #1 fear; those guys have nothing to lose and don't even care for that nothing. They will mess you up "just because."

But collectivists, as long as they aren't "presently dangering" you, are boring. I don't understand getting mad. At those who do get angry: what is the collectivist doing to you, exactly, that justifies anger?

[Zip]

Fortunately "want to" and "are" are different things. Whew. Like I said, there's a big difference between dealing with some ordinary crackpot and dealing with someone with actual authority. If you run afoul of the latter, it's time to pull out all the stops.

Time to start pulling.