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Susan Boyle sings on "Britain's Got Talent"

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You're going to make me become a fan of Vanity Fair with these pictures. I love love love attractive people.

So long as a person has a quality character, I'm with you, but I think you're missing kainscalia's point.

Edited by Thales
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"to withhold your admiration from their virtues is an act of moral embezzlement.." AR.

In post #4, I dismissed the TV show segment contained in the video. I don't think it is inspirational, extraordinary or amazing. I did acknowledge that her singing is good. If she, eventually, will produce something truly of value, like the contents of the clip I linked to in my next post (post #11), I will admire it. Though I doubt it will make the rounds (even as a thread here) as something to be admired and watched by over ten million people on youtube, and have articles written about, because it will lack the valueless, plain circus of Simon Cowell's staged reactions and the audience mirroring it through cheap (what they said wasn't actually funny) laughter and subsequent shrieking, contained in the TV show.

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You're going to make me become a fan of Vanity Fair with these pictures. I love love love attractive people.

It says a lot about you, since attractiveness is an accident of birth, as opposed to hard-earned merit in a field. Of these 'attractive' singers, all but one can sing to the level that she is allegedly being passed as, and she's only adequate, not the mega-star they are trying to sell her as.

I would rather have an average-looking person that can perform astounding feats of artistry (hmm, Dame Joan? Jessye Norman? Ferrucio Tagliavini? Jussi Bjoerling?) over a pretty face who can barely be heard in a house and who has no idea what <I>apoggio</I> means or the fact that Bellini did not intend her to take sixty-five breaths through "Vaga luna Che Inargenti" and sing under the pitch. Some of us prefer substance over presentation - all the better when they're together such as in the case of the King of all Tenors, Alfredo Kraus, or in the stunningly beautiful Anna Moffo at her prime (before she had her vocal crisis precipitated by her alcoholism), but in this case? No.

Both of the British "surprisers" were over 30, and operatic singers. American Idol has an age limit of 28. Also, a talented operatic singer once tried out for the show, and Cowell said that while he was good, that wasn't the style they were looking for.

Alright, it's time to clarify something here: Neither were opera singers. Paul Potts is, at best, a musical theater tenor with a good belt, but he lacks everything an opera singer requires to perform the art: Squillo, sprezzatura, most importantly technique and a unified register without a break in the passaggio. He is excellent for music theater, but for opera the instrument is sub-par. Susan Boyle, again, is excellent for musical theater, but I hope she understands that she will shine there and not in an opera house. It goes both ways, too-- while some incredible opera singers have been able to sing musical theater with the proper style (Enzio Pinza in South Pacific, Beth Clayton in Sondheim's works), others have been a complete train wreck (think Renée Fleming) and should stay far, far away from a genre they clearly do not understand.

For further reference, this is what an opera singer sounds like. The unique American diva Beverly Sills.

Edited by kainscalia
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He did, by about a mile and a half.

Not really, Vanity Fair is about photography, not people's voices. Beauty is a wonderful quality which comes across amazingly through the medium of photography. If they want to feature the hottest opera singers around, that's perfectly understandable.

Plus, you just attacked me for appreciating beautiful people above, confirming that you were indeed attacking them for valuing looks, not just for not selecting the best singers.

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I did not say you should not be judging. I said that, in your judgment, you should be keeping the right context, in this case, of someone with no professional training and no previous stage experience.

There is no such thing as innate talent. Her level of skill requires dedication and focused work - an indication of a deep valuer.

This woman is quiet aware of her physical shortcomings (and low class profile) and age. She was bravely open and honest about her life - particularly about the complete lack of romantic experiences at 47 (she said she has never been kissed!). And yet she did not let all of this beat her down and her dream. She bravely took a chance, carried herself with genuine confidence and pride, and despite the openly negative initial reaction of the audience and judges, she was able to deliver this extraordinary performance in both the level of skill and charisma. What an inspiration! How great for her! and us!

There are all kinds of heroes in this world.

Very well said, I agree completely!

Sophia, I think you're romanticizing her story, by adding adversities she wasn't subjected to

I think the adversities were quite real, and yet she was proud, confident and brave.

So long as a person has a quality character, I'm with you, but I think you're missing kainscalia's point.

Or even better, so long as the beauty comes from that quality of character.

(and as a side note... my god, that Vanity Fair shot is fugly! :lol: )

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Alright, it's time to clarify something here: Neither were opera singers.
I didn't mean to imply that they were as good as professional opera singers, certainly not that they were professionals; my purpose was only to comment on the style of the singing they do, which is closer to operatic singing than pop music. It was in response to a question about American Idol, which wants marketable pop music-style singing that you hear on popular radio stations. Edited by musenji
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I haven't judged her, nor do I intend to on an open forum (I judged her voice: I said it's good), without a good reason, but her context is Britain (or a generic, relatively free society), which has a great appreciation for people with her innate talent (a great voice), and no appreciation for awful clothes and gray, out of style hair---so much for not judging, huh? :lol:

I'd love to know what context you have in mind, that would make her into an heroic figure. She's not exactly breaking out of Saudi Arabia.

Right, the context is Britain.

I live there.

Never in my life have I witnessed, in popular culture, applause for something that is legitimately valuable and life-affirming. Until I saw this on television.

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Susan Boyle would change for the Queen

Thursday, 16 April 2009

Susan Boyle would talk less and sing more if she won Britain's Got Talent.

She told the official website: "Whatever comes my way, I am ready. It would be lovely to sing for the Queen. There would be less of the carry on from me, and more of the singing.

"She is a very regal lady, very nice, so I would be nice too, and just get up there and give it a bit of wellie."

Susan might have millions of fans but she isn't going to let it all go to her head and go off the rails like some celebrities.

She added: "It's a challenge. Life is a challenge sometimes but this is different. And I like to test myself.

"If it all gets too much and they lock me up, I want a great big straight jacket with spots on it. A pink one...

"And a big zip on the back so I can escape!"

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Jake. You came here to this thread with the purpose of knocking down an idol. Regardless of whether the video garnered more value to some people simply because it included a bunch of people clapping and a starry-eyed Simon Cowell, you came here to try and destroy that value, and thus you are in the wrong. Kicking a stuffed animal into the mud, even though it is a fake animal, and it has no emotional value other than what people assign to it, still seems pretty malicious to me.

What's your point? You don't find her heroic? Great, say that. You took it further though, you decided to deride her, and say she hasn't done anything worthy of praise. It does not matter whether a person is a janitor, a waitress, or a diva, what matters is how well she does her job and how much love she has for her own life.

On the subject of the vanity fair article. If you had read Kainscalia's post, you might've seen that the article claimed that 'there are no more fatties in opera.' Thus, the point that the industry is choosing the good-lookers over the good-singers is entirely valid. "Confirming that you were indeed attacking them for valuing looks, not just for not selecting the best singers." Kainscalia's point was that Opera is valuing looks over singing ability, not Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair could've made an article with the title "Look at all these hot opera singers." And had it, then there'd be no issue, however that was not the title nor the subject of the article.

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My first reaction on watching the video was to judge the audience rather than the singer.

Here's some interesting commentary on the Boyle video. A bit over the top, but good food for thought, nevertheless. (Jake_E.. don't click; it'll probably send you ballistic buddy! :) )

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Never in my life have I witnessed, in popular culture, applause for something that is legitimately valuable and life-affirming. Until I saw this on television.

I'm malcontent concerning England myself but that's a bit strong :)

She said no one gave her a chance to sing, and it's "a shame" that she's a virgin at 47 . More than likely she never pursued the right course of action for either end. There's no easier way to the top than through a Simon Cowell program so her 'struggle' is over now.

All in all, through the medium of broad appraisal, a great singer gets a great reaction. I'm holding the heroics though....

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particularly about the complete lack of romantic experiences at 47 (she said she has never been kissed!).

Jeez. Come to think of it, I haven't been kissed or kissed in well over three years and can imagine myself never being kissed or kissing again.

There are all kinds of heroes in this world.

Indeed.

I have only listened to one song from Les Mis from the 1987 recording, "On My Own" sung by Frances Ruffle, who I prefer over any other singer of that particular song, including Lea Solonga (or whatever her name is). I haven't heard her sing the song Boyle sung, but given the backstory too, I did enjoy it. I won't say much more, because I am loyal to Ruffle, and I don't want that to conflict with my judgement of what took place on "Britian's Got Talent" trumping someones personal achievement like that, perhaps I think it would be like an unfair comparison.

As far as appearances go - I am always much more concerned with someones words - whether written or sung, and how they are written or sung.

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Jake. You came here to this thread with the purpose of knocking down an idol. Regardless of whether the video garnered more value to some people simply because it included a bunch of people clapping and a starry-eyed Simon Cowell, you came here to try and destroy that value, and thus you are in the wrong. Kicking a stuffed animal into the mud, even though it is a fake animal, and it has no emotional value other than what people assign to it, still seems pretty malicious to me.

What's your point? You don't find her heroic? Great, say that. You took it further though, you decided to deride her, and say she hasn't done anything worthy of praise. It does not matter whether a person is a janitor, a waitress, or a diva, what matters is how well she does her job and how much love she has for her own life.

On the subject of the vanity fair article. If you had read Kainscalia's post, you might've seen that the article claimed that 'there are no more fatties in opera.' Thus, the point that the industry is choosing the good-lookers over the good-singers is entirely valid. "Confirming that you were indeed attacking them for valuing looks, not just for not selecting the best singers." Kainscalia's point was that Opera is valuing looks over singing ability, not Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair could've made an article with the title "Look at all these hot opera singers." And had it, then there'd be no issue, however that was not the title nor the subject of the article.

Well said.

Tom Jones! no less. :)

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She said no one gave her a chance to sing, and it's "a shame" that she's a virgin at 47 . More than likely she never pursued the right course of action for either end. There's no easier way to the top than through a Simon Cowell program so her 'struggle' is over now.

That's not quite accurate, on one count at least.

Simon Cowell asked her what the dream was?

She said "I’m trying to be a professional singer."

Then Cowell asks her, "Why hasn't it worked out so far, Susan?"

She replied, "I’ve not been getting the chance before. But here’s hoping it will change."

The distinction is between singing and being a professional singer.

She said that, up until her mother's (recent?) death, after which the contest was the first time she'd sung, she had regularly sung in her church choir and karaoke.

She was most definitely taking a chance, a big one with risks, towards becoming a professional singer by entering the contest, then standing there in front of that audience and those judges, yet remaining composed enough to perform as she did.

All in all, through the medium of broad appraisal, a great singer gets a great reaction. I'm holding the heroics though....

Fair enough. I'm curious to see where this goes; I think that she's earned a shot at the title.

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Jake. You came here to this thread with the purpose of knocking down an idol. Regardless of whether the video garnered more value to some people simply because it included a bunch of people clapping and a starry-eyed Simon Cowell, you came here to try and destroy that value, and thus you are in the wrong. Kicking a stuffed animal into the mud, even though it is a fake animal, and it has no emotional value other than what people assign to it, still seems pretty malicious to me.

What's your point? You don't find her heroic? Great, say that. You took it further though, you decided to deride her, and say she hasn't done anything worthy of praise. It does not matter whether a person is a janitor, a waitress, or a diva, what matters is how well she does her job and how much love she has for her own life.

On the subject of the vanity fair article. If you had read Kainscalia's post, you might've seen that the article claimed that 'there are no more fatties in opera.' Thus, the point that the industry is choosing the good-lookers over the good-singers is entirely valid. "Confirming that you were indeed attacking them for valuing looks, not just for not selecting the best singers." Kainscalia's point was that Opera is valuing looks over singing ability, not Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair could've made an article with the title "Look at all these hot opera singers." And had it, then there'd be no issue, however that was not the title nor the subject of the article.

You're an emotional wreck, buddy. Get a hold of yourself. Susan Boyle isn't an idol, she's a game show contestant. The idols are the other karaoke singers, across the Atlantic.

I'm here to differentiate between whatever that video is and great value. If the video was genuine value, then my rational arguments couldn't touch it. My irrational arguments could touch it even less. And of course you wouldn't have to resort to the textbook Argument from Intimidation.

And I've been to a theater before (the AC needed fixing), so I know that both kainscalia and the Vanity Fair article are wrong in saying that everyone in opera is sacrificing talent for looks. The people in the Vanity Fair article aren't good, but they also aren't all that big in the opera world (except maybe Villazon-who does indeed suck-well, he's overrated in some circles- and Anna Netrebko-who is very talented). Which is all the more reason not to use that photo as the sole "evidence" of one's point. Vanity Fair doesn't care about opera, they care about photos.

Kainscalia's only valid point would've been : if you're interested in opera, don't read Vanity Fair to satisfy that interest. They're clueless. Claiming that the people in that photo are the big stars chosen by the movers and shakers of classical music to replace Joan Sutherland and Montserrat Caballé, in a cosmic game of unfairness meant to exclude (and excuse?) wonderful talents who can't make it because of this is a joke.

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Ellison, you're accusing Jackethan of being an emotional wreck, but last time I checked the floor was scintillating with vitriol that had but one source: You. I think you had better look to your own passive aggressive issues before you start projecting all over the board. At this point you are contributing nothing of value to the discussion and much of snark- and low-quality snark, at that. Perhaps we should now return a taste of your own medicine and crucify you because your wit lacks the bright yet venomous sting of Oscar Wilde's?

Incidentally, WHAT theater have you gone to? The article tackles the A-level opera houses in the world, the most visible. I've been to the Met, Bayreuth, Il Teatro Alla Scalla and the Opera De Paris and I have seen this trend, and I see it happening now at B-level houses such as at the Ellie Caulkins in Colorado.

I'm an insider in the field and read about it and breathe it every day, you went to a theater once, and no further information has been forwarded. Which one of us is a more reliable source here? I noticed that you were unable to produce one name that I hadn't mentioned before, so excuse me if I cannot view your apparent knowledge as anything other than regurgitated from my earlier post.

Edited by kainscalia
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I'm an insider in the field and read about it and breathe it every day, you went to a theater once, and no further information has been forwarded. Which one of us is a more reliable source here? I noticed that you were unable to produce one name that I hadn't mentioned before, so excuse me if I now view your apparent knowledge as anything other than regurgitated from my earlier post.

I'm not the one trying to prove that there's a system of massive discrimination against fat people. You are. I've just pointed out that a Vanity Fair article doesn't count as evidence, and neither is your word. Being an insider doesn't make you right in the eyes of strangers. There are plenty of insiders who'd say you're just looking for excuses.

Ellison, you're accusing Jackethan of being an emotional wreck, but last time I checked the floor was scintillating with vitriol that had but one source: You. I think you had better look to your own passive aggressive issues before you start projecting all over the board. At this point you are contributing nothing of value to the discussion and much of snark- and low-quality snark, at that. Perhaps we should now return a taste of your own medicine and crucify you because your wit lacks the bright yet venomous sting of Oscar Wilde's?

I wasn't trying to be witty in my last post, I was trying to explain to Jackethan that he's wrong. And I'll have you know that my witticisms are appreciated by all those who had the pleasure of hearing them.

But you're right, I don't use as big a words as your "scintillating", not even in the wrong context. I guess I just don't try hard enough to be distinguished to make a complete fool of myself.

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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I'm not the one trying to prove that there's a system of massive discrimination against fat people. You are. I've just pointed out that a Vanity Fair article doesn't count as evidence, and neither is your word. Being an insider doesn't make you right in the eyes of strangers. There are plenty of insiders who'd say you're just looking for excuses.

Alright, Ellison, let's put your knowledge to the test. Please name, without using google, the proof that defeats my argument. I've got my issue of "Classical Singer" right here with a list of casts all over Europe and the US that will not only prove my point, but which will also make you look like a bloody fool. Go ahead, make my day.

And I'll have you know that my witticisms are appreciated by all those who had the pleasure of hearing them.

I'm quite sure you have lovely acoustics in your bathroom.

But you're right, I don't use as big a words as your "scintillating", not even in the wrong context.

Scintillating, second definition: to sparkle

Vitriol, second definition: certain metallic sulfates of glassy appearance, as copper sulfate or blue vitriol, iron sulfate or green vitriol, zinc sulfate or white vitriol

It is obvious that you couldn't comprehend that I was painting an image with words, where the floor was clutted with scintillating metallic pieces of glassy appearance that fell out of your mouth -vitriol, the aforementioned material having a peculiar way of refracting light. So, as you see, it was used in the right context, you were just incapable of thinking about it for more than the three seconds it took to issue forth another one of your semisolid posts.

Edited by kainscalia
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I have so little emotion about this woman and this video. Nothing about her personality or looks made me think she'd be bad at singing, and the audience's preconception of her seemed rather silly to me. I disagree with what you posted here for, and I was calling it as I saw it. As far as argument by intimidation, thanks for showing me that, I hadn't heard of it before, but I'd come across the concept. Still, I don't see why you're here. It's like going to a concert for a band you don't like just to make fun of the fans and talk about how bad the band is.

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Alright, Ellison, let's put your knowledge to the test.

Let's not. Let's try and keep both of us at least mildly amused instead, by working on this picture you so skillfully and I'm sure purposefully painted:

Why would my mean words have a metallic sparkle, as they lay there on the floor? Why would they lay on the floor to begin with?

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