Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

NFL 2009

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

As if a couple of days before he didn't know if he was or wasn't going to play.

It's very likely he didn't. It's even more likely he did but hadn't managed to accept his own decision.

I will probably ignore whatever Favre has to say from here on out for a long time.

I've been ignoring him for a while now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 291
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

We're getting there. The pre-season officially kicks off next Sunday Aug 9th with the Hall of Fame game, then on Thursday, Friday and Saturday of the following week. It's just pre-season, but it's something. Gaming houses are already putting up point spreads and all. Of course betting on pre-season games has to be almost as bad as Keno.

Right now I feel like agreeing with the League's proposal to lenghten the season at the expense of one or two pre-season games. But on further reflection I'm still unsure. What we really need is more football between February and Spetember. All attempts to do that ahve failed misserably or have not been very popular (Arena Ball, XFL, I think even NFL Europe). To get summer football we'd have to pretty much undo college football and force the NFL to develop a farm system through a minor league. the chances of that are between very, very, very low and the Moon is actually made of green cheese.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NFL 09 has officially begun. I meant to monitor the NFL Network to see if they'd run the Hall of Fame Game live, but I forgot (New Simpsons eps, D'oh!) In any case it's preseason. In the highlights the Titans wore throwback Oilers uniforms from, I'm guessing, the frnachise's very beginning: blue helmets with a white drilling rig. But at least they acknowledge having once been the Houston Oilers, second best team in the AFC in the late 70s; unlike the Ravens, who I'm sure are happy to forget they were ever the Cleveland Browns (plus the existence of the Cleeveland Browns only makes the matter more confusing).

NFL Net did broadcast the Hall of Fame induction ceremony. That was great. Granted the show ran awfully long considering only six people were so honored, but they did have interesting things to say. All the inductees managed to talk about the accomplishmetns that put them in the Hall of Fame, without sounding either arrogant or conceited.

And so it begins. Just over a month of meaningless games and we'll finally have a brand new season.

Will Kansas City regret acquiring Matt Cassel, or will the Pats regret trading him? I suppose if Brady gets hurt again we'll know for sure, or if Kansas goes 5-11. Kansas is one of the prennial not quite good enough teams. They manage to gather incredible talent and put together amazing teams, yet they fail somewhere in the post-season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The not so big news this week is that sadist Michael Vick has been hired by the Philadelphia Eagles. It's curious this news dind't get more coverage than week on of the rpeseason, but there it is. I think most people are simply repelled by Vick and don't much care about him. For my part, I used to like the Eagles. No more.

What surprised me was Charles Krauthamer(sp?) on the Chris Wallace show on Fox News. This man is one of the best intellectuals on the right, and yet he doesn't understand the notion of double jeopardy. He said that since Vick had done his jail time (which is completely unjustified, BTW) then the NFl doesn't have a right to ban him because that would be double jeopardy. <sigh> I thought people on the right understood the difference between private actions and government actions. Apparently they don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will Kansas City regret acquiring Matt Cassel, or will the Pats regret trading him? I suppose if Brady gets hurt again we'll know for sure, or if Kansas goes 5-11. Kansas is one of the prennial not quite good enough teams. They manage to gather incredible talent and put together amazing teams, yet they fail somewhere in the post-season.

Kansas is the state, Kansas City the city. :D It looks like Cassel will be a good pickup, but everything hangs on our (by all appearances) godawful offensive line. Larry looks very good, I don't think our receivers will scare any secondaries, and the D is a lot better. We play a pretty soft schedule, so we'll be better than 5-11 -- probably 7-9. The mediocrity parade continues in KC! Pioli and Haley have their work cut out for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kansas is the state, Kansas City the city. :D

I know. In fact, acording to MAD Magazine there's a Kansas City in Missouri and other states, but not in Kansas. In NFL terms, however, Kansas is short for Kansas City, understood as being in Missouri where the Chiefs have been a disappointment (more or less) ever since Hank Stram left the team

It looks like Cassel will be a good pickup, but everything hangs on our (by all appearances) godawful offensive line.

I wonder how many players have been good in preseason then went down in flames during the regular season. Preseason is to the NFL what sex is to puritanical adults: they don't talk about it except when it's going on :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know. In fact, acording to MAD Magazine there's a Kansas City in Missouri and other states, but not in Kansas. In NFL terms, however, Kansas is short for Kansas City, understood as being in Missouri where the Chiefs have been a disappointment (more or less) ever since Hank Stram left the team
Uh, no. Not meaning to give you a hard time about this, but just offering a friendly correction (I live in Kansas City). There is also a Kansas City, Kansas adjacent to Kansas City, Missouri and separated by the Kaw (Kansas) River. Maybe in Mexico "Kansas" is short for "Kansas City", I don't know, but not in the US. Here it's just "Kansas City" or sometimes "KC". "Kansas City" is understood to be the one in Missouri, as that's where downtown and the bulk of the metropolitan area are. "Kansas" refers only either to the state or The University of Kansas.

I wonder how many players have been good in preseason then went down in flames during the regular season. Preseason is to the NFL what sex is to puritanical adults: they don't talk about it except when it's going on :D
Agreed. You can't tell much at all from preseason.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uh, no. Not meaning to give you a hard time about this, but just offering a friendly correction (I live in Kansas City).

You mean MAD Magazine is not a reliable source of geographical information? I am shocked and apalled.

There is also a Kansas City, Kansas adjacent to Kansas City, Missouri and separated by the Kaw (Kansas) River.

That sounds alot like the great pair of metropolises of Sioux City, Iowa and South Sioux City, Nebraska, no offense.

Maybe in Mexico "Kansas" is short for "Kansas City", I don't know, but not in the US.

I'd swear I've heard just about every sports broadcaster reffer tot he Chiefs as merely "Kansas" during games.

Agreed. You can't tell much at all from preseason.

Coaches are supposed to be able to tell. That's why the second- and third- stringers get lots of playtime. ON the other hand, there hasn't been much reaction to League propposals to extend the season by one or two weeks, which would mean one or two weeks less of preseason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You mean MAD Magazine is not a reliable source of geographical information? I am shocked and apalled.
:dough:

That sounds alot like the great pair of metropolises of Sioux City, Iowa and South Sioux City, Nebraska, no offense.
None taken, except that Kansas City is just a little bit bigger than Sioux City. :)

I'd swear I've heard just about every sports broadcaster reffer tot he Chiefs as merely "Kansas" during games.
Hmm, don't know what to tell you about that. I've heard it once, maybe twice, in my entire life.

Coaches are supposed to be able to tell. That's why the second- and third- stringers get lots of playtime. ON the other hand, there hasn't been much reaction to League propposals to extend the season by one or two weeks, which would mean one or two weeks less of preseason.
Oh, I thought you were talking about the casual fan. True, a coach is supposed to get a pretty good idea about his team from the preseason, though it's still difficult to judge rookies or players in a new scheme (as is the case with the Chiefs).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

None taken, except that Kansas City is just a little bit bigger than Sioux City. :dough:

The only reason anyoe outside Sioux CIty, IA, knows about its existence is that a United flight crashlanded at its airport some years ago (why the airport was ther ein the first palce is a mystery).

Anyway, how big is Kansas City, MO?

Oh, I thought you were talking about the casual fan. True, a coach is supposed to get a pretty good idea about his team from the preseason, though it's still difficult to judge rookies or players in a new scheme (as is the case with the Chiefs).

Many network analysts are former players and coaches. Either they should be able to tell, too, or they should know what the coaches are looking for.

As to the fans, the average NFL fan knows he posseses a vastly superior knowledge than that of any coach, save perhaps Vince Lombardi. After all, all fans can tell, instantly, when a coach has made a bad call. Sure that's hindsight, but if the coaches were so smart they'd have hindsight-foresight, wouldn't they? :)

Seriously, preseasons really don't count. As far as I know no stats from preseason games are added to carrer stats, either for the players or the teams, the records don't matter and not a single preseason play has ever made it to an official NFL Films production )not that Steve Sabol will admit to).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only reason anyoe outside Sioux CIty, IA, knows about its existence is that a United flight crashlanded at its airport some years ago (why the airport was ther ein the first palce is a mystery).

Anyway, how big is Kansas City, MO?

Yeah, that was a horrible accident. The city proper is about 450,000, while the Greater Kansas City area (which is the city + suburbs) is right at 2,000,000.

Many network analysts are former players and coaches. Either they should be able to tell, too, or they should know what the coaches are looking for.
I don't envy NFL coaches their jobs. Assessing the ability of a player to transfer his talent to game performance is a real art. There are so many variables, the best coaches learn how to limit uncertainty and risk, rather than expecting to groom every draft pick to the roster. So many studs looked horrible in college or the combines, and vice-versa. Preseason games only give you the slightest hint of a player's actual ability over several NFL seasons. Final roster cuts are a major roll of the dice. It's a tough, tough job.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, that was a horrible accident.

Yes. On the other hand, bringing a DC-10 down without any control surfaces working is an amazing display of airmanship. There were quite a few survivors, too.

The city proper is about 450,000, while the Greater Kansas City area (which is the city + suburbs) is right at 2,000,000.

Hmm. I pass more than 450,000 people driving 15 miles to see customers in the southern areas of Mexico City. But I suppose the name Kansas Small City is too unwieldy :dough:

I don't envy NFL coaches their jobs.

I don't either, but it's a job with a tremendous potential for satisfaction. Winning a Superbowl has to be a great, uplifting moment, too.

There's also great potential for frustration (ask Bum Phillips, Sam Wyche or Marty Shotenheimer), and losing a Superbowl has to be a great, depressing moment.

Assessing the ability of a player to transfer his talent to game performance is a real art. There are so many variables, the best coaches learn how to limit uncertainty and risk, rather than expecting to groom every draft pick to the roster. So many studs looked horrible in college or the combines, and vice-versa. Preseason games only give you the slightest hint of a player's actual ability over several NFL seasons. Final roster cuts are a major roll of the dice. It's a tough, tough job.

Indeed. I wonder how many coaches turned Kurt Warner down.

Regarding quarterbacks, there's another issue: how do you judge a QB? Usually by the numbers, which are readily available, can be easily manipulated and every coach understands. But the ultimate objective is to win games, eventually the Superbowl at least once. Will a QB with impressive numbers help you achieve that, or do you need a different kind of QB, one who can lead the offense, read the opposing defense, rally the team around, etc, and how the hell do you determine that anyway?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding quarterbacks, there's another issue: how do you judge a QB? Usually by the numbers, which are readily available, can be easily manipulated and every coach understands. But the ultimate objective is to win games, eventually the Superbowl at least once. Will a QB with impressive numbers help you achieve that, or do you need a different kind of QB, one who can lead the offense, read the opposing defense, rally the team around, etc, and how the hell do you determine that anyway?
Well, there are plenty of objective criteria for judging a QB (or any position). Generally, better stats indicate greater ability to win games. Leadership, coolness under pressure and late in games, and intelligence applied to running the offense are all skills that coaches have made a science out of assessing. Training camp is a proving grounds for finding out if your QB understands the playbook, recognizes defensive alignments, blitzes, and feints, audibles successfully, looks off receivers, and dozens of other essential skills.

For example: Joe Montana. So-so arm. Superb leadership. Off the charts feel for the game. Adds up to one of the greatest ever.

Ryan Leaf: Outstanding arm. Rocks for brains. Spastic loser. Thanks for playing.

Arm strength and accuracy contribute considerably less towards consistently great play than automatizing the complexities of opposing defenses. You still have to have enough arm to get the ball in the right guy's hands, but knowing when and where that should be is more important than shaving a couple tenths of a second off your pass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, there are plenty of objective criteria for judging a QB (or any position). Generally, better stats indicate greater ability to win games. Leadership, coolness under pressure and late in games, and intelligence applied to running the offense are all skills that coaches have made a science out of assessing. Training camp is a proving grounds for finding out if your QB understands the playbook, recognizes defensive alignments, blitzes, and feints, audibles successfully, looks off receivers, and dozens of other essential skills.

I really should stop rehashing this. I just can't get over the fact that two of the most successful QBs in recent years were 1) shunned by the NFl and 2) drafted dead last.

To be fair Warner proved problematic and Roethlisberger's second season made it look as though his fantastic first season was a fluke. Whereas Brett Favre and Peyton Manning consistently put up big numbers and racked up winning seasons. And there ahve been Qbs with a great rokkie seson who then are never heard from again. Still, I keep thinking the various coaching staffs are missing something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really should stop rehashing this. I just can't get over the fact that two of the most successful QBs in recent years were 1) shunned by the NFl and 2) drafted dead last.

To be fair Warner proved problematic and Roethlisberger's second season made it look as though his fantastic first season was a fluke. Whereas Brett Favre and Peyton Manning consistently put up big numbers and racked up winning seasons. And there ahve been Qbs with a great rokkie seson who then are never heard from again. Still, I keep thinking the various coaching staffs are missing something.

Since you're the resident NFL expert, how are the Cardinals set for this season? Is Warner still the QB?

Also ... I'm wondering ...

How 'bout 'dem COWBOYS!!!!!??????? :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really should stop rehashing this. I just can't get over the fact that two of the most successful QBs in recent years were 1) shunned by the NFl and 2) drafted dead last.

To be fair Warner proved problematic and Roethlisberger's second season made it look as though his fantastic first season was a fluke. Whereas Brett Favre and Peyton Manning consistently put up big numbers and racked up winning seasons. And there ahve been Qbs with a great rokkie seson who then are never heard from again. Still, I keep thinking the various coaching staffs are missing something.

Yeah, Warner is a good example of just how tough assessing QB ability is. While I'm sure nearly every coach has sizeable flaws in his objectivity and epistemology, most of these guys are very sharp. Often enough, the player has the talent, but just takes a while to put all the pieces together or needs the proverbial "change of scenery". Drew Brees, Jeff Garcia, and Jake Delhomme all took several years to figure it out, and at least the first two were high draft picks (not sure about Jake). Matt Cassell toiled in anonymity for years behind Brady. A lot of teams would have liked his stats from last year. Now he's pretty old, and he's just beginning his career as a starting QB. Then there's guys like Manning (Peyton) and Favre who get it right away.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since you're the resident NFL expert,

Ha! My brother would laugh at you. He has paid subscriptions to ESPN's websites (or did, I don't know if he's kept them up), he reads SI religiously (which is much better than reading the Bible religiously, of course). All I've read is a book on College Football economics by Rick Telander and the swimsuit issues of SI (precious little football in those, but then...)

how are the Cardinals set for this season? Is Warner still the QB?

Warner will be the starting QB for the season unless 1) he gets injured (duh) or 2) he has a relapse of whatever caused the QB controversy with the Rams and Bulger at the turn of the Century. But he's the kind fo QB Ken Wisenhunt can work best with (see what he did with Roethlisberger)

How 'bout 'dem COWBOYS!!!!!??????? :lol:

Lovely new stadium, a marvel of modern civil engineering and architecture, with a sort of Jumbotron so large it should have been set up in Texas! Man, that screen is so freaking big (how freaking big is it?), it's so freakign big everyone at the stadium will watch it rather than the actual action on the field (thank you!)

As for the filling in that stadium, well, the owner is a younger, tiny bit nicer sort of Al Davis without Davis' loyalty to his head coaches (ie, Davis knew the head coach would share in his spotlight and either didn't mind or tolerated such insolence).

And this may be Romo's very last season as a starter. If dem Cowboys can't win one playoff game, Romo will be written off like a bad loan.

Other than that, and I find this very hard to say, I hope they trounce the Eagles good (did I really say that?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, Warner is a good example of just how tough assessing QB ability is. While I'm sure nearly every coach has sizeable flaws in his objectivity and epistemology, most of these guys are very sharp.

I don't like to criticize coaches when they have the weight of every decision on their shoulders and I don't. But I do think something's missing in their conventional wisdom.

Matt Cassell toiled in anonymity for years behind Brady. A lot of teams would have liked his stats from last year. Now he's pretty old, and he's just beginning his career as a starting QB.

There are two things to say on that: 1) at least the Pats were spared another QB controversy (the Bledsoe vs Brady is still ongoing, even though Bledsoe is long gone) and 2) we'll ahve to see if Cassell can repeat last season's performance without the rest of the Pats.

Then there's guys like Manning (Peyton) and Favre who get it right away.

True. Yet even many of them aren't set as starters from the beginning of their careers. Favre in particualr first came on the field to sub for an injured Don Majkowski (who?). And remember Aikman and Walsh (who?)? It's even ahrd to believe a dead-last draft pick like Big Ben was thought to be a mere adequate back-up to Tommy Maddox (who?).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True. Yet even many of them aren't set as starters from the beginning of their careers. Favre in particualr first came on the field to sub for an injured Don Majkowski (who?). And remember Aikman and Walsh (who?)? It's even ahrd to believe a dead-last draft pick like Big Ben was thought to be a mere adequate back-up to Tommy Maddox (who?).
Right, I'm saying that Favre got great relatively quickly. He was rather poor in his first two seasons, but still managed to chuck up 3,000 yards. By season three, he figured it out. That's quick. By contrast, Jon Kitna took a good seven years to get going, and Carson Palmer is still trying to figure it out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, I'm saying that Favre got great relatively quickly. He was rather poor in his first two seasons, but still managed to chuck up 3,000 yards. By season three, he figured it out. That's quick.

Plus Green bay wasn't that good then so the team could afford to give the QB time to sort things through. Marino in Miami, though, started right off and was great from the beginning.

By contrast, Jon Kitna took a good seven years to get going, and Carson Palmer is still trying to figure it out.

Palmer was doing very well until a Steeler busted his knee during a playoff game. Some players never recover from bad injuries for any number of reasons.

Speaking of QBs, Bret Favre is back <yawn> He's developing a Billy Martin quality of sorts. Bookmakers should start laying odds of when he'll break down this season and what team will he play for in 2010. I figure he'll pick San Diego next for the weather, but maybe Tennessee for location. The Vikings should begin to plan his retirement party right now, too. Hell, Favre ought to start shopping for a new team by mid season in roder to spare us yet anotehr Favre Watch off-season.

But right now the only sure bet is that the first Vikes-Packers game this season will have high ratings. I think the promotion angle will be a grudge match, or a revenge game. Good stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ha! My brother would laugh at you. He has paid subscriptions to ESPN's websites (or did, I don't know if he's kept them up), he reads SI religiously (which is much better than reading the Bible religiously, of course). All I've read is a book on College Football economics by Rick Telander and the swimsuit issues of SI (precious little football in those, but then...)

Fair enough. I used to be heavily into all of the major sports, but I stopped doing that a long time ago.

Warner will be the starting QB for the season unless 1) he gets injured (duh) or 2) he has a relapse of whatever caused the QB controversy with the Rams and Bulger at the turn of the Century. But he's the kind fo QB Ken Wisenhunt can work best with (see what he did with Roethlisberger)

That was a bad thumb, so it probably won't happen again.

Other than that, and I find this very hard to say, I hope they trounce the Eagles good (did I really say that?)

So, you’re finally coming around to admitting you're a Cowboys fan. :pimp:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of QBs, Bret Favre is back <yawn> He's developing a Billy Martin quality of sorts. Bookmakers should start laying odds of when he'll break down this season and what team will he play for in 2010. I figure he'll pick San Diego next for the weather, but maybe Tennessee for location. The Vikings should begin to plan his retirement party right now, too. Hell, Favre ought to start shopping for a new team by mid season in roder to spare us yet anotehr Favre Watch off-season.

But right now the only sure bet is that the first Vikes-Packers game this season will have high ratings. I think the promotion angle will be a grudge match, or a revenge game. Good stuff.

The Vikings organization and Bret Favre better hope that they have a successful season, not just for the goal of getting into and progressing through the playoffs, but in order to keep the organization and whatever is left of his reputation, alive. If the Vikings start losing because of Favre there's going to be a lot of pissed off people who will blame, not only the head coach, but also the owner; and Favre will be hated much more than he was in New York after the Jets season ended last year. If Favre would have just joined the Vikings when he hinted--I want to use the word implied--that he was going to, the severity of an unsuccessful season wouldn't be as bad. But with Favre's actions and the Vikings staff coddling his decisions and accepting to be held hostage by him, the team could get torn apart; and the organization will be blamed for dividing, isolating, and alienating members of the team.

For sure the Vikings-Packers game is going to be a must see. I'll also be watching the Vikings upcoming preseason game against the Chiefs, this Friday. It will be at Minnesota, and Favre is expected to play; lets see how many tickets they will sell for this preseason game--which circles back to our conversation in May :pimp:.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, you’re finally coming around to admitting you're a Cowboys fan. :pimp:

I'm not sure of the propper etiquette, so I'll just go right ahead and propose wapons. You can set the time and palce. I proppose poisoned wineers at two paces.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Vikings organization and Bret Favre better hope that they have a successful season, not just for the goal of getting into and progressing through the playoffs, but in order to keep the organization and whatever is left of his reputation, alive.

Woulnd't that mean losing another Superbowl? Or is that "unchanged"? :)

Favre si a huge gabmble. He's old for a QB, he's coming out of shoulder surgery with all that implies, and as you note he dind't exactly succeed with the Jets. He might be the push the Vikes need to have a good season and post-season, or he might be a dud. IN any case, as with the Jets, all the fans' hopes will be riding on him. That's unfair, given he has no control over the Minnesota defense, but it's what it will be like.

You also ahve to consider what Favre's presence will do to any QB prospects in Minnesota this year. I'm sure the Jets wound up missing Chad Pennington late last season.

For sure the Vikings-Packers game is going to be a must see. I'll also be watching the Vikings upcoming preseason game against the Chiefs, this Friday. It will be at Minnesota, and Favre is expected to play; lets see how many tickets they will sell for this preseason game--which circles back to our conversation in May :pimp:.

They sell pre-season tickets? I thought they were given away to people the teams and the league really don't like :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure of the propper etiquette, so I'll just go right ahead and propose wapons. You can set the time and palce. I proppose poisoned wineers at two paces.

I propose Playboy Playmates in a vat of mud. You chose yours, I'll chose mine and we'll see who wins. :pimp:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...