Question from a beginner

[dollardoctrinaire]

Hello,

My question is: what is the Objectivist perspective on unions and workers rights? Is breaking up unions and persecuting workers for unionizing a good thing? Would you join a union to get more benefits from your employers?

[AndrewRyan]

Hello,

My question is: what is the Objectivist perspective on unions and workers rights? Is breaking up unions and persecuting workers for unionizing a good thing? Would you join a union to get more benefits from your employers?

Workers can make unions if they want, as individuals they have freedom of association. Employers can fire them and have the police escort them off the property, as individuals they have property rights.

[dollardoctrinaire]

Employers can fire them and have the police escort them off the property, as individuals they have property rights.

Why do workers have rights of association on the property of capitalists? Isn't it upto the boss to decide whether they do or not?

The man who lets a leader prescribe his course is a wreck being towed to the scrap heap. - Ayn Rand

Why do workers have to bow to capitalists? Doesn't it contradict the above quote?

I'm just trying to learn many new things about Rand. Please help.

[DavidOdden]

Why do workers have rights of association on the property of capitalists?

Unionisation doesn't imply use of the owner's property, so if workers want to band together in a local bar or union hall, they can. The employer can then decide whether to negotiate with those workers (who will negotiate as a corporate entity), or seek other non-union workers.

An employer cannot break up a union. They can, however, make a union superfluous by offering competitive compensation (especially if the labor market is favorable to the sellers of labor). There would be no advantage to a union, and a major disadvantage or two. Unions are basically pointless, except insofar as they improperly coerce employers and employees.

[dollardoctrinaire]

Unions are basically pointless, except insofar as they improperly coerce employers and employees.

I see. Then why do so many exist? I guess its just the evil of socialism doing that. Its not as if the workers can hope to anything better in the Soviet Union. I think the workers should be a little more grateful to what they have in this awesome country of freedom. Here, the unemployments is so low its negligible, thanks to the capitalists. No thanks to the evil government on that! People are poor and unemployed because they don't want to work and are lazy stupid and arrogant! Why can't some people (like Obama for ex) understand that!?? [/rant]

Is anyone here a member of any union? Currently I'm a studen and unemployed, so not a member.

[kainscalia]

I am having a hard time believing you are sincere, doctrinaire.

Edited April 25, 2009 by kainscalia

[Marc K.]

Here is a good thread on unions:

http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.p...st&p=182185

[dollardoctrinaire]

I am having a hard time believing you are sincere, doctrinaire.

I'm just asking questions here. Why do you "feel" that way?

[AndrewRyan]

I'm just asking questions here. Why do you "feel" that way?

Your style of writing suggests sarcasm/satire.

[DavidOdden]

Then why do so many exist?

Historical reasons. The lure of supposedly free swag seems to be hard for many people to resist. Anyhow, union membership has dropped substantially over the past 50 years, which basically means that there aren't so many unions.

I think the workers should be a little more grateful to what they have in this awesome country of freedom.

I don't. Gratitude is only useful if someone snatches you from a raging torrent. I think workers should grasp the cold hard facts about the value of unskilled labor or semi-skilled labor. Rather than thinking in terms like "I need more money so that I can have a life so they should pay me more", laborers should think "How can I make my work more objectively valuable, so that there will be a higher demand for what I have to trade?".

[DavidOdden]

To put unions in perspective, the BLS reports that in 2008, only 1/8 of the labor force is unionized. Furthermore, there is a 5-fold higher rate of unionization in government jobs -- no surprise there.

[JMeganSnow]

I once interviewed for a job as a clerk at a university and was surprised to find that a.) it was a union position and b.) it was the *electrical workers' union*. Excuse me, but how in heck does a UNIVERSITY CLERK merit entry into the ELECTRICAL WORKERS' UNION?

I think trade unions can be beneficial as a sort of club for skilled workers--you can keep up on developments in your field, track average wages for other people in similar jobs which can be very beneficial to workers AND employers because it's difficult to find out accurately how much a given position is paying in several different areas. Knowing the going price for certain skilled labor is valuable information and probably worth membership on that basis alone. It's no different from a businessman subscribing to online automatic stock updates, except that few companies voluntarily report their wages to anyone other than the government, so it's harder to find out that sort of thing.

But the recent communications workers' strike in Ohio is an example of precisely what unions shouldn't be doing, because it was stupid. You don't hold a strike during an economic recession when dozens of people would happily jump into your jobs--possibly even for less than AT&T was offering you. If AT&T had the freedom to do so, they'd have filled every striker's job within a couple of weeks and saved themselves a lot of money. Instead, it's a mess.

[gags]

The unions have done a fairly nice job of ruining the US auto industry. Of course management shares some of the blame, but the rigid and expensive labor contracts imposed by the unions are a big contributor to the decline of GM, Chrysler and Ford.

[Capitalism Forever]

I am having a hard time believing you are sincere, doctrinaire.

I'm just asking questions here. Why do you "feel" that way?

Well, for starters, when somebody tries to sneak in an accusation of emotionalism like you do above, it makes one wonder what motive could have led you to it.

We know you are just asking questions, and personally, I don't doubt that you don't know the answers to them and are genuinely confused about Objectivism. The problem is that you don't sound like someone who is earnestly trying to find the answers, either.

[SD26]

My father was part of a union for his life work. He started that in 1959 or so, I think, and retired in 1996, if I remember correctly.

When he started work, there were lots of jobs, and they paid good money too. In listening to my dad talk about it in the 80's, they, the unionized workers, committed to the company they worked for. There was a sense of pride in their work, their showing up on time, if not early, taking on over time opportunities. This was beneficial for the company and the workers then.

As the global opportunities changed along with more government regulation in the US, his company moved work elsewhere over time. I used to recognize some animosity in his attitude to some of the younger workers in taking possible advantage of "sick time" and other things. Seemed like he saw those people as lacking the pride and commitment that he and his age group put in twenty years before.

Ultimately, the company is gone from its location completely. All of those thousands of jobs don't exist. Changes in the economy of paying those guys and the economic necessity and need of the product changed and made it less needed if not virtually uneccesary. A union can't make a market for a product that doesn't have a buyer.

[RussK]

I've lived in the south for most of my life so I never really heard about unions except for national news pieces, and in my previous occupation I didn't have to worry about them. I first heard about a real concrete and terrible example of unions while visiting family near Chicago. While there, a family friend was talking about trying to get employment on construction projects but was unable to because he was not a member of a union. The individual then went on to tell me that there are different 'levels' in unions, and the higher level you achieve, the more, maybe better jobs become available to you. What's ironic is that after he complained about his union situation, I began saying how bad unions are, using various arguments, and then I told him that I didn't think there was a union in place anyone near where I lived; he then began justifying the existence of unions, and one of the reasons he used was immigration.

[SD26]

and then I told him that I didn't think there was a union in place anyone near where I lived; he then began justifying the existence of unions, and one of the reasons he used was immigration.

If you live in the United States, the public school teachers are most likely required to be members of the teacher's union. Might also be true for state government workers also.

[JMeganSnow]

The problem is that you don't sound like someone who is earnestly trying to find the answers, either.

I wouldn't go that far, but he does seem to have a very "pat" mentality ("I guess it's just the evil of socialism"), which may just indicate that he's pretty young and still in the dogmatic/rationalist phase most people go through at that age when they first encounter Objectivism. With luck, he'll grow out of it.