Eagle Scout

[chuckleslord]

I've recently been have a moral dilemma over whether or not to finish and get my eagle scout. I have been having difficulty in deciding whether or not I should get it. I decided to bring it here because I have been having trouble with deciding and am afraid if i put it off too long, the decision will be made for me (I have 3 months to finish, but it is very doable)

the dilemma I am having is that I don't agree with many parts of Boy scouts, and i know that if i finish it out, that those morals, which are no longer mine, will follow me for the rest of my life. the reason why i want to finish is that i would be the first to do it in my family, and many benefits would ensue.

any suggestions?

[themadkat]

I've recently been have a moral dilemma over whether or not to finish and get my eagle scout. I have been having difficulty in deciding whether or not I should get it. I decided to bring it here because I have been having trouble with deciding and am afraid if i put it off too long, the decision will be made for me (I have 3 months to finish, but it is very doable)

the dilemma I am having is that I don't agree with many parts of Boy scouts, and i know that if i finish it out, that those morals, which are no longer mine, will follow me for the rest of my life. the reason why i want to finish is that i would be the first to do it in my family, and many benefits would ensue.

any suggestions?

Obviously there are some problems with the values that Boy Scouts espouse as an organization. However, I do not believe that they are sufficiently bad to deny yourself the considerable achievement that becoming an Eagle Scout represents. Being an Eagle Scout means that you have met certain objective criteria and possess some important skills that you should be proud of. I don't think you have to embrace all that an organization represents in order to attain personal achievement through it, any more than I agree with my university's mission statement because I got a diploma from them.

[Eiuol]

You should be more specific about what it is you do and don't like about the Boy Scouts. You didn't provide very much information. Just don't use "it's only 3 months to become an Eagle Scout from this point, so I may as well reap the benefits that comes with it" as a reason to finish it. I'm only vaguely familiar with what is required to become an Eagle Scout.

[KendallJ]

(I have 3 months to finish, but it is very doable)

the dilemma I am having is that I don't agree with many parts of Boy scouts, and i know that if i finish it out, that those morals, which are no longer mine, will follow me for the rest of my life. the reason why i want to finish is that i would be the first to do it in my family, and many benefits would ensue.

any suggestions?

As an Eagle Scout who disagrees with some of the values of Scouting as they are espoused now, my preference would still have been to finish.

When you say " those morals, which are no longer mine, will follow me for the rest of my life" what do you think you mean? The morals you choose come with you for the rest of your life. Take what is good of the experience, and believe me there is a lot that is good, and simply drop the rest off at the door.

Being an Eagle Scout is not endorsing a particular set of values for the rest of your life. It is a sign that you have completed a set of tests, most of which are indicators of character, leadership and independence.

Hurry up, get your ass in gear, and finish it.

Edited May 15, 2009 by KendallJ

[ctrl y]

those morals, which are no longer mine, will follow me for the rest of my life.

No reasonable person will infer from your being an Eagle Scout that you agree with everything in the philosophy of the Boy Scouts. The military discriminates against homosexuals. That doesn't lead people to assume that the soldiers they meet are anti-homosexual.

Edited May 15, 2009 by ctrl y

[chuckleslord]

absolutely, I will finish it up. Time to get my but in gear.

[Jake_Ellison]

I don't agree with many parts of Boy scouts, and i know that if i finish it out, that those morals, which are no longer mine, will follow me for the rest of my life.

Their morals won't follow you, except maybe in the eyes of a few idiots.

However, it is unclear how the Boy Scouts and their Mormon backers would react if you were honest with them, and told them that you are an Objectivist who rejects their values. I think you should be perfectly honest with your instructor (or whatever he is called), and only finish if they can accept that fact and don't throw you out.

Unlike the Military, this is a private organization which has the right to discriminate against people they don't like, and should know their members' relevant views. If they would discriminate against you for those views, I don't see how any degree they have to offer could possibly be of value.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Jake_Ellison

[Grames]

the Boy Scouts and their Mormon backers

It is weird that you think this relationship is important. Boy Scouts are a Christian-aligned organization, and Mormons are just one sect among many. There are far more Catholic boy scouts than Mormons. Even so, the religious affiliation is pretty much beside the point. The activities and achievement badges are not about being a good Christian, that is a nonessential.

[Jake_Ellison]

It is weird that you think this relationship is important. Boy Scouts are a Christian-aligned organization, and Mormons are just one sect among many. There are far more Catholic boy scouts than Mormons. Even so, the religious affiliation is pretty much beside the point. The activities and achievement badges are not about being a good Christian, that is a nonessential.

I love how nonessentials manage to exclude quite a few people because of their sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

I suggest you call up, inform them that you are an atheist, raising atheist children, and see if they would be suitable for admission into the Boy Scouts. If no (and the answer will be no), please name the essential characteristic that caused that.

As for the Mormon thing, I heard that the Mormon Church was behind the shift in policy that started excluding gays and atheists from an episode of Penn and Teller: Bullshit. I have no further information, so I could be wrong, but in my experiene P&T wouldn't commit such a monumental factual error.

If you have any reliable information to contradict that, please share.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Jake_Ellison

[KendallJ]

Well, you're both right and you're both wrong. The mormon church has made inroads into the management of the troops that it sponsors and the councils where mormon churches are prevalent. However, all troops are essentially independently formed and policies are hardly uniformly practiced.

When I was a Scout the religious aspects were almost non-issues in my particular troop and what was taught was a non-religous specific "reverence" (which today, I apply as a reverence for the myself, and for the human capacity for reason)

You'd simply have to know more information about chuckleslord specific context and to advise based upon some broad brush generalization will yield poor advice. The Eagle Scout award is not a "degree" and it has no value as such. The advice I'd give someone who was just starting into scouts and someone who only had 3 months to finish is vastly different. At this point in chuckleslord progression, it is far less about an abstract policy discussion that might not even apply in his case, than about having the personal character to complete what he has already 99% completed.

If someone says they have 3 months to finish, they probably have already completed the Eagle Project, and lack maybe a few merit badge requirements and a board of review. At this point it is basically about finishing and acknowledging your already 99% completed accomplishment. I was 2 merit badges short of my Eagle and considered quitting. I'd regret to this day if I did. It had nothing to do with some larger philosophical issue at that point, and more with a 13 yr old kid who was starting to discover high school and girls.

Edited May 15, 2009 by KendallJ

[Grames]

I love how nonessentials manage to exclude quite a few people because of their sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

I suggest you call up, inform them that you are an atheist, raising atheist children, and see if they would be suitable for admission into the Boy Scouts. If no (and the answer will be no), please name the essential characteristic that caused that.

As for the Mormon thing, I heard that the Mormon Church was behind the shift in policy that started excluding gays and atheists from an episode of Penn and Teller: Bullshit. I have no further information, so I could be wrong, but in my experiene P&T wouldn't commit such a monumental factual error.

If you have any reliable information to contradict that, please share.

This thread is participating in Boy Scouting activities from a boy's perspective. Boys (and children in general) don't have strong religious identities and don't not begin to be sexual until after puberty. Those are nonessential to the participants.

Policies of excluding atheists and homosexuals apply to adults getting involved in Scouting. Frankly, I wouldn't trust an atheist with a chip on his shoulder with my child either. And a male homosexual attempting to get involved in Boy Scouting is probably a pedophile. It is unjust to smear all homosexuals with the suspicion of pedophilia, but I wouldn't give a damn about justice to strangers when my child's welfare is at stake. Both exclusions are totally sensible.

[ctrl y]

Frankly, I wouldn't trust an atheist with a chip on his shoulder with my child either.

Could you clarify this sentence?

Edited May 15, 2009 by ctrl y

[Grames]

Could you clarify this sentence?

An adult using his child to forward his own public agenda is not operating from a standard of what is best for his child. If religious thought is so dangerous, why try to enroll in Scouting in the first place?

An atheist not necessarily an Objectivist, or even compatible in a general way.

[Peripeteia]

As a Scout myself, I advise you to finish. You have come all this way. There is no sense in wasting it. There is nothing for you to lose, and many things that will be gained.

[Maximus]

I am an Eagle Scout myself (with Bronze Palm), and would recommend Scouting for any boy who wishes to participate. It was one of the best things I ever did, aside from the Army. The values that Scouting teaches are essential to the formation of a well adjusted individual.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Maximus

[Steve D'Ippolito]

I am told that of late it has gotten more religiously oriented. Does anyone out there have more insight into that?

[themadkat]

I am told that of late it has gotten more religiously oriented. Does anyone out there have more insight into that?

From what I understand, it is very troop/location dependent.

[Lemuel]

the reason why i want to finish is that i would be the first to do it in my family, and many benefits would ensue.

any suggestions?

No one else can really answer for you. The questions you have to ask yourself are:

- Are the values you agree with more important to you than the values you disagree with?

- Is the achievement more important than giving up on it in protest of those disagreeable values?

- Are the consequent benefits available in equal opportunity without achieving this goal?

I don't like that the Boy Scouts are backed by religious organizations, but aside from its religious aspects, I think the Boy Scouts is a virtuous organization. Confidence, self-reliance, the value of developing skills, the importance of achievement, employing a merit system, etc. are all values that both the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts promote. You certainly won't find those taught in a lot of public schools.

I, too, have heard that the religion thing is gathering some momentum -- but so are those that are protesting it. There are many former Scouts that are gay or atheist that, while now outside the organization, proudly associate themselves with the Scouts because of the positive things they derived from it, and are vocally critical of the organization's discriminations.

[narcher007]

No one else can really answer for you. The questions you have to ask yourself are:

- Are the values you agree with more important to you than the values you disagree with?

- Is the achievement more important than giving up on it in protest of those disagreeable values?

- Are the consequent benefits available in equal opportunity without achieving this goal?

I don't like that the Boy Scouts are backed by religious organizations, but aside from its religious aspects, I think the Boy Scouts is a virtuous organization. Confidence, self-reliance, the value of developing skills, the importance of achievement, employing a merit system, etc. are all values that both the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts promote. You certainly won't find those taught in a lot of public schools.

I, too, have heard that the religion thing is gathering some momentum -- but so are those that are protesting it. There are many former Scouts that are gay or atheist that, while now outside the organization, proudly associate themselves with the Scouts because of the positive things they derived from it, and are vocally critical of the organization's discriminations.

I'm an Eagle Scout, and currently working as a Professional Scouter. I have several issues with a lot of the 'public good' or 'public service' aspects, as well as religious things. However, with those minor things, there are several things you can choose to pursue in Scouting, things that you can't pursue in school or church. I believe that if you personally get something out of something, then you should do it, and doing it does not mean you support that thing or not. If you get value out of it, then do it. However, if you do something and you want to be recognized for doing it selflessly, then it probably isn't a good idea. Be proud of you, don't hide in the slimely depths.

[NotCrazyDan]

Do it. It's a solid achievement and you'll regret it if you don't. You'll be truly fortunate in life if you're never in an organization that you don't have some kind of issue with. No other person, much less group of people, will ever perfectly reflect your attitudes and worldviews.

[chuckleslord]

Ok, for anyone is wondering, 2 months ago I had not just 2 merit badges, but three and my project to do. I managed to get two of the three merit badges done and am on the actual project part of my project. I have 1 week to finish, which is very doable. thanks for everyone's support.

[softwareNerd]

Break a premise .

Edited July 30, 2009 by softwareNerd

[Charles Lester]

Their morals won't follow you, except maybe in the eyes of a few idiots.

However, it is unclear how the Boy Scouts and their Mormon backers would react if you were honest with them, and told them that you are an Objectivist who rejects their values. I think you should be perfectly honest with your instructor (or whatever he is called), and only finish if they can accept that fact and don't throw you out.

Unlike the Military, this is a private organization which has the right to discriminate against people they don't like, and should know their members' relevant views. If they would discriminate against you for those views, I don't see how any degree they have to offer could possibly be of value.

I disagree with you. I am an Eagle Scout, and feel pride and a great sense of accomplishment at all the things I did in order to achieve it. I also relish the knowledge that I have, and pride myself on being able to live on Earth without any of the rest of you; although, I'm glad I don't have to!

True; the prospective Eagle scout will no matter what still have his experiences so far, and will still have the knowledge, but he has still invested so much to go as far as he has gone.

Chuck, all along you have said the pledge of allegiance, said the scout oath, been to meetings in churches, etc.. Forgive yourself, and recognize that these are things you chose to do in order to gain the things that you like and agree with; the knowledge, the memories, the adventure of it all! Get your final rank, and join the rest of us atheist and objectivist Eagle Scouts.

I promise you that you won't wake up one day and hate yourself that you did. Scouts honor!

[Jake_Ellison]

I disagree with you. I am an Eagle Scout, and feel pride and a great sense of accomplishment at all the things I did in order to achieve it. I also relish the knowledge that I have, and pride myself on being able to live on Earth without any of the rest of you; although, I'm glad I don't have to!

I never said you don't feel pride to be anything, warranted or otherwise, so what the disagreement is with, I don't know. You failed to mention it, but I'm sure you're proud of that too, and that, in the name of John Gault, my Objectivism card is revoked, because my mama is so fat and yo' funny.

Does that about sum it up?

[Charles Lester]

I never said you don't feel pride to be anything, warranted or otherwise, so what the disagreement is with, I don't know. You failed to mention it, but I'm sure you're proud of that too, and that, in the name of John Gault, my Objectivism card is revoked, because my mama is so fat and yo' funny.

Does that about sum it up?

I disagree that Chuck should forego his Eagle aspirations is all. Hey! I never talked about how fat yo mama is, I only referenced her expertise in those things "ethnic;" in fact, I would assert that she is an absolute expert, and that's why you are so quick to make "ethnic" accusations without any foundation.

As always: You funny!