Incest: Right Or Wrong

[tommyedison]

Is incest right or wrong?

Please give your opinion and your reasons.

[jfortun]

Parent-child is clearly wrong. Parents are trustees of their children's rights which means protecting the rights of a child and not violating them. I’m not sure what else needs to be said regarding this kind of incest.

I don't know of any research but incest between siblings it would seem to guarantee psychological damage as well. If reproduction is the goal (or perhaps just because there is the potential) I think it is clearly immoral to take the risk of producing a child in circumstances where genetic abnormalities are common.

I think incest between cousins is a grey area. I don't know what the science is about the potential risks (genetic or otherwise), but if the risks are low then I don't see a problem with it.

[BrentRolfe]

Is incest right or wrong?

Please give your opinion and your reasons.

Do you have children?

Brent

PS this is my stock question lately

[DavidOdden]

Both. In some contexts it is a form of rape in which case it is wrong. In some contexts it's just plain sex between consenting adults, which has been deemed to be illegal in a particular jurisdiction because of arbitrary laws (consider the "not even the same last name" rule in Chinese society, the willy-nilly way that first cousins are treated). In the latter case, you simply need to determine whether it's right for some two people to have sex, and there is no general, universal rule.

[tommyedison]

Do you have children?

Brent

PS this is my stock question lately

I am still 14.

Long way to go...

Both. In some contexts it is a form of rape in which case it is wrong. In some contexts it's just plain sex between consenting adults, which has been deemed to be illegal in a particular jurisdiction because of arbitrary laws (consider the "not even the same last name" rule in Chinese society, the willy-nilly way that first cousins are treated). In the latter case, you simply need to determine whether it's right for some two people to have sex, and there is no general, universal rule.

But what about brother and sister?

[BrentRolfe]

I am still 14.

Long way to go...

I am releived to hear it!

[jfortun]

But what about brother and sister?

I think sexual experimentation between minors is one thing, but I can't shake the feeling that a long term romantic relationship between siblings would be unhealthy for both parties.

[erik]

Common Sense seems to dictate you don't have sex with Family or people at work. I mean you are going to see or know a sibling for the rest of your life and it would create numerous future problems obviously. Whether its ethically wrong there is a good question. Here is a concrete example that I'm sure has been plyaed with in fiction a lot ( Star Wars is a good example ). What if a brother and sister were seperated at birth and they met later as adults but did not know they were related ( actually Symarillion by Tolkien takes this further and thats probably where Lucas stole it from ). Would it be immoral for them then have a sexual relationship/ get married?

[DavidOdden]

But what about brother and sister?

You mean like the doofie blondes on MAD TV (Trish? Something like that).

Knowledge counts. The fact of genetic relationship is not important, despite rationalisations to the effect that this protects the species. "Incest" between siblings who have no prior relationship and have no knowledge of a genetic connection should not be distinguished from a relation between unrelated strangers. Furthermore, in the context of a non-genetic family (e.g. one child is adopted), incest between two people living under the same roof is not justifiably treated as different from regular old brother-sister incest.

The basic question should be whether the relationship is a twisting of reality: misunderstanding one kind of personal relationship for another kind. I think Erik is being overly-moralistic in saying that people who work together shouldn't have romantic relations. But the point about dumping a lover, vs. a sister, is important.

[DPW]

Peikoff made an interesting point, that two people should enter a sexual relationship as fully independent beings, so that we should not be sleeping with anyone we grew up with. I hope I've not mistated his views, but in any case, I don't know his full reasoning. Nevertheless, I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Bryan]

Peikoff made an interesting point, that two people should enter a sexual relationship as fully independent beings, so that we should not be sleeping with anyone we grew up with. 

Would that include someone you grew up with as a close friend (like Dagny and Francisco in AS)? Or just someone who grew up with you in the same household, like a step-sibling or adopted sibling?

[Thoyd Loki]

But what about brother and sister?

Umm...something you want to tell us?

[jfortun]

Umm...something you want to tell us? 

I'm glad you went there first.

[source]

I'm glad you went there first.

Yeah, me too.

I've recently seen a documentary on how people choose their partners. There were a number of things they said, but one thing fascinated me most. There were about 10 jars or containers with a piece of clothing from one of 10 females and the subject male had to smell the content of each jar and arrange them according to how much he liked the scent.

He arranged them in the exact order as the scientists predicted (maybe it was some jars off around jar 5 or 6), and they predicted that they'd be arranged in that order which would give the best genetic code for the children these two people would have if they were together.

I don't know if young children have this ability developed yet - to recognize whether or not a certain other person would be a good mate - but I think that finding out whether they do or don't would give the final answer to, or at least would be an important step in answering the question of children having sex amongst themselves and perhaps with adults. As it is, however, I don't think that young children have this ability and that it isn't a good idea for children to have sex with anyone. As for teenagers in puberty, that is another question.

Also, this research shows, only vaguely, that we normally choose the best partners for ourselves; and that happens to be the partner who is the most attractive to us. If someone finds his sister attractive to him, well, it's their problem.

[Som Guy]

Now a lot of people are associating things that are not incest with it. Sure rape and abuse are common among it, but that is not the issue. The issue is whether two people related on a family level(genetically, socially, or both) is wrong ethically. As far as I can see the concept itself is not wrong. There are many other things seperate from incest that would be wrong in almost any relationship of this kind that it would most likely be a very bad choice. Last I heard offspring created from genetic cousins didn't actually have any higher chance of genetic defects. The bottom line is, any type of relationship is not wrong by default, it all depends on the people in them and how they behave.

[RationalBiker]

The bottom line is, any type of relationship is not wrong by default, it all depends on the people in them and how they behave.

Can you clarify this a little? Are you saying that there's nothing inherently wrong with say, a sexual relationship between a 30 year old father and his 4 year old daugher? That under the right context this could be a healthy relationship?

VES

[Som Guy]

Can you clarify this a little?  Are you saying that there's nothing inherently wrong with say, a sexual relationship between a 30 year old father and his 4 year old daugher?  That under the right context this could be a healthy relationship?

VES

That is still bringing in context unrelated to incest and related to the individuals involved, age. The only question here is whether there is anything inherently wrong with a relationship between two genetically related or otherwise family related at one point.

[RationalBiker]

Parent-child is clearly wrong.  Parents are trustees of their children's rights which means protecting the rights of a child and not violating them.

I think we found something on which we can agree.

I think the parent who would find value in a sexual relationship with their child would be too likely to manipulate the child's values to make the child also find value in that kind of relationship. I see this as too much of a violation of the trust the offspring should be able to have in the parent as the guardian, a conflict of interest so to speak.

VES

[Dagny]

WRONG...wrong wrong wrong...I'm not sure why you're even asking this. But in my opinion it is completely wrong- morally/ethically and genetically. I'll grant you that distant cousins aren't in that much danger of having a sickly child. But in any other way and in any other case ...it is sickening. I'll even go further and say that its anti-human evolutionary. If our ancestors had started committing incest on a regular basis ...just think of the dire state humans would be in?!

p.s. I apologize if I seem more emotional and less rational....but that is my response to such a question.

[tommyedison]

WRONG...wrong wrong wrong...I'm not sure why you're even asking this. But in my opinion it is completely wrong- morally/ethically and genetically. I'll grant you that distant cousins aren't in that much danger of having a sickly child. But in any other way and in any other case ...it is sickening. I'll even go further and say that its anti-human evolutionary. If our ancestors had started committing incest on a regular basis ...just think of the dire state humans would be in?!

p.s. I apologize if I seem more emotional and less rational....but that is my response to such a question.

Genetically it would be wrong if it causes retardation in new-borns but why morally or ethically except in cases of parent-child (in which case it would be double betrayal of spouse and the responsibility of being a guardian)? The fact that a person feels that it is wrong or finds it disgusting doesn't make it so without sufficient reason.

[Dagny]

First, I see that you agree that it would be genetically wrong. Ok, now if a brother and sister were to have sex, both knowing that they are related and both having full knowledge that it could produce a sickly child.... then it is an immoral act on both their parts due to their actions causing the sad life that child will lead. Whether or not a child is produced is another question. Even with birth control and protection there is still that chance. Which is why humans have developed morals and ethics....it is in our self-interest not to produce a generation of mentally retarded children. Hope this answers your question.

[Betsy]

Is incest right or wrong?

Back in the old NBI lectures someone asked Branden if it was wrong and he replied that the problem with incest is that "It is much too easy."

[Thoyd Loki]

Let's change up tommyedison's example a bit. Let's say the brother and sister are not genetically related. Maybe one of them are adopted. My sister is adopted, so I will not participate in that example, if anyone wants to.

I would say though that any step-relation is fair game.

[tommyedison]

Back in the old NBI lectures someone asked Branden if it was wrong and he replied that the problem with incest is that "It is much too easy."

What does that mean?

[Betsy]

Back in the old NBI lectures someone asked Branden if it was wrong and he replied that the problem with incest is that "It is much too easy."

What does that mean?

It means that, unlike a romance between strangers, there is little need to establish one's value to the other person because one can use familiarity. It is a very anti-effort, unchallenging approach to romance.

Also, if it involves seducing a child, the seducer is taking advantage of the innocence, ignorance, and the trust the child would normally have in a family setting.