A complicated romance issue

[Krattle]

Ah, I gotcha. Yes, his views on emotions and in particular romantic love, sex, and relationships are *very* important. It's hard these days to find someone who sees sex as emotional, intellectual, and physical. And who sees love as something selfish, not some selfless "you must love your family because they're your family." If you can't tell your mate exactly why you like them, i.e. "I like you because you respect logic over emotions, you actually think about things, you're emotionally mature, you're motivated, etc. etc." then something's not right. If he isn't willing to hear why you love him and he thinks you should love him unconditionally, then I just can't see compatibility there.

You should always be willing to look past certain flaws or failings in your mate's personality because all of us have some kind of issue in our lives. Even Ayn Rand made some serious mistakes in her life. But since ideas are obviously important to you (as they are to me), then your boyfriends contrary ways of thinking are a big problem and you seriously need to consider whether its worth the time to convince him of the right ideas or whether you should just move on. It sounds harsh, but if ideas are important to you on an intellectual and emotional level, it's a major issue.

[Krattle]

As for stuff like common interests - the same music, the same books. I won't say that's unnecessary. It's minor compared to philosophical views, but it's still important. And if he doesn't see eye-to-eye with you on *why* you like what you do, that's an even bigger issue. It's one thing to say, "Well, you like rock music, but I don't. I don't hate it, but I prefer such-and-such, and I won't mock your tastes because I see nothing wrong with them." But it's a totally different thing to say, "Your favorite book sucks and I think it's evil and should be purged from existence. Here, read my favorite book." I don't want to suggest anything too...bold, but maybe you should do the same with one of his favorite books. Give him a taste of his own medicine and see how he likes it. He could have just been an inconsiderate jerk that one time, so you need to find out if he has a conscience or not. But uh, don't do anything you don't think is right.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Krattle

[bluecherry]

Yeah, the intellectual component of sex is especially hard to get anybody to recognize, especially explicitly. I was talking to this mate of mine and somebody else one day on the subject a little while ago and the other person laughed and just thought I was being totally absurd at the suggestion that philosophy could have any impact on sex and sexual satisfaction. My mate I've been speaking of didn't go so far as to laugh at me exactly, but they seemed to generally share the position with that other person. I only even started to touch on that issue of how ideas like that could impact sexual things after basically being quite badgered into speaking on the subject when I really didn't want to do so, largely because I knew the kind of reaction I'd get. After I did start to say so, I had to tell them basically, "See? And you wonder why I'm so hesitant to share with you on certain very personal issues. I get reactions like this and you still seem amazed at how sharing these things doesn't make me feel better and closer to you." That, by the way, is one of the other conditions if I return - I have to be willing to share pretty much all my thoughts, even ones I've been hesitant to before, think don't really impact them, are very deeply personal to me so much so I don't generally want to share them with anybody else at all, and I know that when I do, I get really not cool reactions, I get laughed at, not believed, treated like I'm naive or stupid, belittled, et cetera.

As far as selfish or unselfish and conditional versus unconditional love, this person is a little odd in that their actions speak of selfish and conditional love at least mostly, but their philosophic understanding is so strangely twisted and contorted that they seem to not believe it is possible that it could be so (I think before he's told me he doesn't think that anybody really is ultimately acting selfishly, that they always are motivated by others and crap. In fact I think he tried to tell me he didn't believe that I was really selfish in my pursuits there. I tried to explain why I disagreed both with the overall idea he had and his specific applications to us, but it would have taken more time than we had then to get through that argument, so we had to drop it) and they think they love the people they do "unconditionally", but their idea of "unconditional" love seems to amount to the idea of "to understand all is to forgive all", but applied only to certain types of people with personalities that appeal to him. He doesn't seem to get it that picking people of certain personalities is a condition (and a fine one) and that knowing why they did what they did and therefore always being forgiving of everything and still loving them anyway just because you know why they did it just amounts to allowing certain people you've decided you like to walk all over you with a near blank check from you on emotional sanction of their every move, just so long as they keep doing it with certain quirks and habits. (Note though that on the plus side, if things get bad enough, though he says he'd still love somebody who had become such a mess, he would get out of there to try to stop letting himself get hurt. Of that I'm glad.) Also, I've asked before because many times I've wondered why he liked me and he has been able to tell me many things he does like about me and many of them are significant things I value in myself, but then again many of the other big things I value about myself are things that he could care less about or just sort of takes with the rest of the package of me. Furthermore, he asked became seriously attracted to me and even told me he loved me before he knew a large amount of these things about me, which again makes me question what are the things which really inspired him to love me in the first place, what are the essentials? I suspect a lot of the things he likes about me could probably evaporate and he'd still love me anyway . . .

As for family in particular, it isn't actually that he thinks I'm obligated to love my family or that I should do so selflessly - he actually thinks that it is just a feeling sort of built into people to have them respond to family with love, like they can't help it, and that I'm perhaps wired up wrong or something if I don't feel it, that I'm just not built like normal people or something.

"You should always be willing to look past certain flaws or failings in your mate's personality because all of us have some kind of issue in our lives." ROFL. Oh believe me, I'm not insisting on perfection; love requires equals, and I know I've still got plenty I'm working on in myself.

As for the art things, actually, for the most part I've liked what art he likes that he's shown me. Like for example, there are a number of animes we both like, a couple of them I've watched on his recommendation. We've liked a lot of the same videogames too. I can't come up with off the top of my head a time he's shown me one I just really had *that* strongly negative a reaction to like he's had to some of my stuff. However, in what I must add is one of the strangest twists here, when we made that deal that we would read some stuff on each other's recommendations, it was the Sword of Truth series that he recommended to me. I first heard of those books from him. I almost laugh sometimes hearing him occasionally mention to me how I need to read some stuff in there because he thinks it has good counters to what he believes are my arguments when I know that the author fundamentally agrees with me on the subject almost surely.

A large part though of why this issue is so particularly stressful to me and why I'm thinking on it so very hard is that, in addition to the fact that if I do not stay with him as a mate he will be gone from my life entirely, there's the fact that by now due to the amount of unusual things I'm looking for in other people which are hard enough to find even one or two of here and there on their own, I don't think there is anybody with *every* one of the unusual things I want and so this current person (who is missing the only thing I think could be missing without it probably making things impossible right from the get go) is the closest there is, there isn't better out there to be found. So while I have difficulties being with this person, the other option is to just loose them entirely and without ever even getting any other mates either. I don't know, I'm not sure which of those options would be harder on me to live with. And if it is my standards which are causing me pains and may be unrealistic, if I could find a way to alter my underlying standard to then be able to get a realistic one which could be met and I could be happy with it that would be even better. However, for as much thinking as I've given it, I haven't come up with anything that I could do so far to change it and I worry that, since I don't think there will be any major, major changes in who I am any time soon, nothing will be changing my values and therefore my standards anytime soon. I may be stuck and just having to weigh between which is harder to live with - the relationship with him as he is under the conditions given, or without him in my life at all nor anybody else who will be even that close either.

[Krattle]

I also thought that the chances of meeting someone who was perfect for me more than once were extremely low if not nonexistent. But I've met two women in 6 years who met if not exceeded my standards. So don't be so glum about that!

If you want to stay with this man, then I think the best thing you can do is to debate him. Just sit down and present your arguments for these issues logically. Don't give him a chance to talk or interrupt; he needs to listen to your arguments in full. You may get through to him if you just present yourself as logically as possible. You may want to include personal anecdotes and examples to back up your argument. If you use yourself as an example, it will really put him on the spot and you will probably get more genuine answers/rebuttals than if you just spoke in the abstract. For instance, you've said he *has* told you exactly why he likes you. Well, ask him point blank, "if you know why you like me and you can put it into words, how come you can't understand that that is conditional love?" Just a thought.

I suppose the main problem is, do you think there is enough you like about this guy to put the effort convincing him of these issues?

[bluecherry]

Heh, oh I have only mentioned one or two of my difficult to find things I'm looking for here recently when I've got a minimum of five or so, and that somebody share my general philosophic convictions is only one of the two hardest things to find, and then there's at least another few things which they don't need to share, but will need to be able to put up with that many people may not well tolerate. I've only ever found even a few people who even piqued my interest as romantic possibilities and only about three of them were serious possibilities, none of those three even ended up quite what I'd thought at first, and I actually have found fewer and fewer people of any interest to me in that area as time has gone by. Things are looking worse instead of better with time and looking around. ^^; Heh, maybe if I clone myself I could get all this stuff in another person, but then I'm sure the conversation would get dull fast. But we may be able to up our productivity a good deal while decreasing stress. Sex with a clone would probably be pretty darn awkward though . . .

I've been trying to debate him on particular issues for years here and there, and I intend to debate fiercely and persistently for the overall philosophy if I do stay with him and he does the reading, however, I can't go back unless I'm completely fine even if nothing comes of me debating to my best. I have tried examples, including things from our lives before. Usually, though it has often driven me up a wall, we end up just not pursuing a debate to its end because we've got other stuff to do or one or the other or both of us is not in a good mood to do so at the moment or we get side tracked and never answer the original question and such. As for the love thing for example, his typical answer to a question like that is that pretty much regardless of what I do or don't do, where I go from here on out in my life, it doesn't matter too much, he'd still love me even if he'd decide he couldn't be with me. He insists he understands me so well - better than I understand myself often even - that he would just see why I did what I do and took the paths that I did so that it wouldn't matter to him what I became like, it all basically came from something he liked to begin with so it is still fine with him I guess. Believe me, it isn't hard to convince me it is worth it to debate for a long and hard time with somebody - I've already reached points with some people before I didn't care if I spent my whole life debating an issue, I'd go for as long as it took - the trouble is just that even if I find that there's nothing I can do anymore, that he's effectively become a brick wall over some issues, I can't go back if that wouldn't be fine with me to just accept and live with. I'm trying to decide still if I could just live with that.

[whYNOT]

bluecherry, I've been following your saga with deep interest for months, hoping underneath it all for a happy ending, but not really expecting one.

I began by siding with the guy - what does this chick think by laying down the law, giving him conditions for the relationship! Can't last. ' Take me as you find me, or move on,' kind of thing.

As your sincerity for a rationally principled life became clearer, my respect grew for this woman who was caught in a dilemma, between what is apparently a special kind of guy, and her adherence to her independent mind.

Thing is, if I had to ask you what your choice would be between living a compromise with a man, and living alone for maybe a lot of years - well, no need to reply, as I am sure of your reply.

The uncompromisers of principle are a unique and special breed; but they often have to pay a price in the short term, imo.

Thing is, also: I've been getting the feeling in recent posts, that you already know what you are going to do.

The best of luck, blue.

Tony

[bluecherry]

My saga? Actually, I've been calling it my epic. It fits the format so well - there are invocations to the muses (*thinks in vain, calling out to Rand and her fictional characters about what's a pretty reasonable, but weird, lonely pipsqueak to do*) , arming of the heroine scene (*digs through source materials on the subject and records of conversations and past events*), even a descent into the underworld (*gets to the point of feeling like she's not even quite alive anymore*). And of course, I'm plenty verbose enough and have plenty enough nicknames for myself and those I know to go through the epic similes and long titles thing too at various times.

You know what by now is the hardest part for me in this though? It isn't just the prospect of being alone for a long time - I could do that proudly. The real trouble is just that I don't think any amount of waiting will get me to find somebody really right anymore. It wouldn't be me waiting because there would be nothing I would be waiting for, it would just be accepting being alone. I certainly haven't ruled out leaving just because the alternative is nobody, but it makes it even harder to weigh the decision - a difficult and clearly less than ideal situation which I have to live with and work with on a daily basis, or just none at all and not having to put up with such discomforting conditions, but also lose somebody I care about a lot entirely and never get anybody again to even nearly fill what they were to me in various ways. The real question for me seems to be, "So which one do I think would make me feel the loneliness more acutely? Being entirely, but openly alone, or being largely alone still, but acting in all kinds of contorted ways to keep up an image of not being quite so alone?" (The "image" here not meant to be the same as if I said an "illusion" though - they would know what was going on as well as I would, just the actions we took in practice would still look like what a perfectly fine normal couple would be doing to make things work with each other, as if it wasn't quite so hard to do.) I get to dreading more and more all the time that I just can't do what he'd need of me, but on the other hand with how lonely I've been feeling as it is, I don't like to think long on how much worse I'd be if I lost him from my life now altogether too. I know it may seem ridiculous that it could take me so many months to weigh this question, but I feel like I'm almost down to being told to pick my poison and just recoiling at my options and appalled at the apparent lack of any real good option. "There is nobody really right for me" just seems like something only really crappy people should be seriously facing at any point. Unfortunately though, there are common enough amounts of slight variations of the same old crappy ideas and practices floating around that it seems like even most crappy people don't have all that serious a lack of options. But, alright, that's enough wallowing over the same old same old and getting nowhere new for me for now. I got to tell you my "epic" comparison, and that was what was a bit amusing to me. It's kind of nice to know not everybody else has entirely left my issue for dead and totally hopeless even if it has been really dragging out, so thanks for the patience and persistence I suppose while we wait to see what the climactic (or perhaps anti-climactic?) conclusion of this epic saga will be.