AllMenAreIslands Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) " ...they aren't separated from the woman, and therefore have no individual rights." It's not a baby when it's in the womb but it gets born 30 seconds later and boom it's a baby and suddenly has rights? Yes. That's it, exactly. Edited November 12, 2009 by AllMenAreIslands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Yes. That's it, exactly. That's the thing. Just because there is a fine line separating a fetus right before birth and a baby after birth, doesn't mean the line doesn't exist. No matter where you put the point you could argue that 1 millisecond before that there's no essential difference, and regress that all the way back to conception. There is likely no single point where a fetus first becomes aware of its surroundings, either, so you wouldn't be able to use that as a clear guiding principle. It just seems that once you surrender the hard line that is birth there is really no principle stopping you from claiming that a clump of cells is also human and should have rights, and that therefore abortion at any point is murder. And that's exactly what many pro-lifers claim. Once you surrender a woman's right to abortion with these disclaimers there really is no good point to stop it from there. You may say that it gains rights at viability (or whatever criterion you use), but viability is not a clear-cut concept either, and would not be as objective as birth. And another person could easily come along then and move the point around a little, and there's nothing you could do to prevent that because you've surrendered the absolute nature of the right. Especially viability is problematic because it is a post-facto determination that is made. You cannot know in advance if the fetus is going to survive out of the womb, and in many cases all they have are percentages. So what about the cases where you think it is viable and it wasn't? You'd prevent the mother from exercising her right to determine what happens to her body for no good reason. The only way to find out whether it is viable or not is to actually deliver it and see, and what do you do when it wasn't viable and you basically just violated the woman's rights? I would hope that people are consistent enough then to say that that as well should be an offense. And even more problematic than that is how much effort can reasonably be expected to keep a delivered fetus alive? Is viability determined by average care given to such a child, or is it dependent upon what is theoretically possible but may be hideously expensive? Just because it is possible to keep a child alive, doesn't mean that it's a good course of action to take. It may not be worth the very real costs, both monetarily to the parents and physically to the child if it develops all sorts of serious problems because of the delivery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllMenAreIslands Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think the line provided by "birth" is an excellent unequivocal one for determining where RIGHTS begin. Rights and Life are two completely different concepts. Whether you subscribe to the idea that you should talk to your fetus, or play different kinds of music, in addition to the kinds of substances you do or do not ingest during pregnancy - all of that is morality, the "how to live" portion of the equation, which each woman/set of parents need to decide and act upon. When a woman does not wish to go through the pregnancy, that is not an issue of concern to anyone other than herself, her doctor, perhaps the man involved, and others of the woman's choosing whom she wishes to inform. It's certainly not the business of busybody nutcases who clearly have no life of their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maarten Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think the line provided by "birth" is an excellent unequivocal one for determining where RIGHTS begin. Rights and Life are two completely different concepts. Whether you subscribe to the idea that you should talk to your fetus, or play different kinds of music, in addition to the kinds of substances you do or do not ingest during pregnancy - all of that is morality, the "how to live" portion of the equation, which each woman/set of parents need to decide and act upon. When a woman does not wish to go through the pregnancy, that is not an issue of concern to anyone other than herself, her doctor, perhaps the man involved, and others of the woman's choosing whom she wishes to inform. It's certainly not the business of busybody nutcases who clearly have no life of their own. Yes, agreed. It really is the only objective line that you can drawn. The only other clear line would be conception, but I think it is quite clear that a fertilized egg is NOT equivalent to a human being in any essential way, and that's why it wouldn't be the right point to confer rights upon the egg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllMenAreIslands Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Yes, agreed. It really is the only objective line that you can drawn. The only other clear line would be conception, but I think it is quite clear that a fertilized egg is NOT equivalent to a human being in any essential way, and that's why it wouldn't be the right point to confer rights upon the egg. Exactly. I have no problem agreeing that a new life has begun at conception. The sticking point in the abortion discussion is when that new life gains rights. Unfortunately for those who oppose abortion, and whether they are willing to concede this point or not: their position is the equivalent of asserting that the unborn ought to have the right to enslave the living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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