How do you trigger Joy?

[Hazmatac]

One time when I was with my friend, he had a guitar. I mentioned I liked it or something, and he ended up selling it to me very cheap. In that moment, based on my evaluation of I just got something I really liked for a great price, I almost felt a feeling of joy. Well, the short story is, I want to feel that feeling that I might have felt on that day. My question:

How exactly do I trigger the strong chemical feeling of joy (I say chemical because feeling joy [at least in that instance] would feel like a chemical hitting my nervous system or something). Even if its not a chemical, imagine a tital wave of positive feeling hitting your body. That's what it would be like.

[fountainhead777]

achieving values.

you wanted an instrument and got it for less than you expected you could by trading money, one value, for another, the guitar.

pursue values and try to do so more productively.

[Axiomatic]

One time when I was with my friend, he had a guitar. I mentioned I liked it or something, and he ended up selling it to me very cheap. In that moment, based on my evaluation of I just got something I really liked for a great price, I almost felt a feeling of joy. Well, the short story is, I want to feel that feeling that I might have felt on that day. My question:

How exactly do I trigger the strong chemical feeling of joy (I say chemical because feeling joy [at least in that instance] would feel like a chemical hitting my nervous system or something). Even if its not a chemical, imagine a tital wave of positive feeling hitting your body. That's what it would be like.

If you want joy and pleasure, achieving rational values is the right way to go.

However it gives me 'joy' and the positive body feeling when I take a hit of good quality X every few months.

[musenji]

Learn to play the guitar.

[Hazmatac]

fountainhead777, when you say achieving values, do you mean that if the "object of my desire" won't bring me joy if it is just given to me for some reason?

musenji, do you think that will bring me joy? If so, why?

Thanks for your responses

Edited June 6, 2009 by Hazmatac

[musenji]

It was partially joking, partially serious. I am a guitar player, and have derived a great deal of joy from it. If I haven't played in a long time, just hearing the sound of my guitar making notes brings me joy. But that's also because I love my guitar.

Plus, I am a person of selectivity. I like the feeling that everything I have, I use, so I'd hate to own a musical instrument that never got used.

And, if you like the form, why not learn the function?

On a side note, are you the kind of person who consciously decides what sort of emotion you ought to be feeling, or puts a lot of conscious effort into analyzing emotions? I was, too...now I'm less so. I think to experience some kinds of emotions you have to be able to stop consciously analyzing it and just let it happen, because emotions are the result of SUBconscious integrations in the moment. Think of Dagny on the train with Halley's 5th in her head, thinking, "just this once, it's okay to let go and just feel".

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

The overall point is that in order to experience happiness or joy (undiluted happiness) then you have to actually go out and work at achieving something; the joy comes from acknowledging that you have actually achieved something. You are not a plant, so you cannot just sit there and soak up the environment -- you are a rational animal, so you must first choose a goal -- i.e. learning to play the guitar -- and then practice it and then accomplish it, and then you can enjoy your skills. Motivation to achieve something can be very difficult to maintain, depending on your mental / emotional state, but certainly not aiming to earn anything will not bring joy. So, I would say, yes, to one of your questions -- if someone is just giving it to you and you haven't earned it, then it won't mean that much to you because you didn't go through the effort to achieve it.

You've been asking some good questions, lately, does understanding the answers bring you any happiness? Because intellectual achievements also bring joy.

I would most certainly not recommend turning to illicit drugs if you are having emotional difficulties, because it is an attempt to experience happiness and joy without achieving a value, which is very contrary to man's life as the standard. I occasionally have a beer or two, and I enjoy it, but the harder drugs can be very counter productive. So, go forth and achieve something

[Hazmatac]

are you the kind of person who consciously decides what sort of emotion you ought to be feeling, or puts a lot of conscious effort into analyzing emotions?

No, I just am trying to find the formula for joy, and then accomplishing it.

The overall point is that in order to experience happiness or joy (undiluted happiness) then you have to actually go out and work at achieving something; the joy comes from acknowledging that you have actually achieved something. You are not a plant, so you cannot just sit there and soak up the environment -- you are a rational animal, so you must first choose a goal -- i.e. learning to play the guitar -- and then practice it and then accomplish it, and then you can enjoy your skills. Motivation to achieve something can be very difficult to maintain, depending on your mental / emotional state, but certainly not aiming to earn anything will not bring joy. So, I would say, yes, to one of your questions -- if someone is just giving it to you and you haven't earned it, then it won't mean that much to you because you didn't go through the effort to achieve it.

(bold mine)

Yeah, I remember that all the money that I used to buy the guitar with was from my own effort, which might have helped in "almost" triggering joy.

You've been asking some good questions, lately, does understanding the answers bring you any happiness? Because intellectual achievements also bring joy.

Thank you. In fact, earlier today in the chatroom on here I finally *grasped* that reason is our tool of survival. I enjoyed how I finally understood it, what it meant and the new range of thought it allowed, for it was finally integrated.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Hazmatac

[Zip]

However it gives me 'joy' and the positive body feeling when I take a hit of good quality X every few months.

Are you joking or serious here?

Joy is not what you are feeling when you are stoned out of your gourd.

[Axiomatic]

Are you joking or serious here?

Joy is not what you are feeling when you are stoned out of your gourd.

Well, I was At Last Drugged when I last read Atlas Shrugged.

Seriously though, if you've never had high quality X, you have no position to judge. It's evident from the fact that you think it just makes you 'stoned' that you have little idea of its effects.

Personally, I think there are very good applications for this drug, especially as a therapeutic tool. Also, if you want to have an innocent, en'joyable' time once in a blue moon, it is a relatively harmless substance.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Axiomatic

[Axiomatic]

And yea, I know this comment is going to be controversial on an Objectivist board, but I'm sick of puritanical nonsense. Its perfectly OK to enjoy yourself in moderation, OK folks.

It is in no way contradictory to Life as the standard.

[Jill]

You never feel joy when you get gifts?

[Zip]

Well, I was At Last Drugged when I last read Atlas Shrugged.

Seriously though, if you've never had high quality X, you have no position to judge. It's evident from the fact that you think it just makes you 'stoned' that you have little idea of its effects.

Personally, I think there are very good applications for this drug, especially as a therapeutic tool. Also, if you want to have an innocent, en'joyable' time once in a blue moon, it is a relatively harmless substance.

You know what, I haven't tried it and I'm not going to. Reading on the side effects, knowing that 9 times out of 10 when you buy illegal drugs you have no fucking clue at all what you are about to ingest and realizing that "feelings of euphoria" are not the same thing as joy I'll pass forever thanks.

I'm not a puritan though I drink and I've done drugs in the past, but I would no more recommend that someone try to find joy in the bottom of a Rye bottle than I would recommend that someone who was looking to go really fast should throw himself off of a tall building.

Mindless intoxication is mindless intoxication no matter how "good" it feels at the time.

[Axiomatic]

You know what, I haven't tried it and I'm not going to. Reading on the side effects, knowing that 9 times out of 10 when you buy illegal drugs you have no fucking clue at all what you are about to ingest and realizing that "feelings of euphoria" are not the same thing as joy I'll pass forever thanks.

I'm not a puritan though I drink and I've done drugs in the past, but I would no more recommend that someone try to find joy in the bottom of a Rye bottle than I would recommend that someone who was looking to go really fast should throw himself off of a tall building.

Mindless intoxication is mindless intoxication no matter how "good" it feels at the time.

Due to our existing drug laws, it is true that 9/10 is a pretty good approximation of the odds of getting good quality product (if you don't have a reliable and consistent contact).

Also, I did not 'recommend' taking drugs to anyone, I only stated my own experience and knowledge of the drug that I do enjoy very rarely. If someone however was so inclined and has a correct source, and were interested in the experience, I would not turn them off to it at all unless there was a warranted cause to (mental instability and such). There is certainly much joy and pleasure to be found in such a pursuit for the right person. There are also therapeutic benefits that are worth looking into.

Now as far as you equivocating the safe usage of relatively harmless drug with intoxicating yourself with a bottle of Rye and jumping off of a tall building, that is just flagrant misrepresentative propaganda of the fox news variety.

There is such a thing as moderate 'mindful' intoxication but I don't see much point in continuing this conversation with you as you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Good day.

[Zip]

Also, I did not 'recommend' taking drugs to anyone, I only stated my own experience and knowledge of the drug that I do enjoy very rarely. If someone however was so inclined and has a correct source, and were interested in the experience, I would not turn them off to it at all unless there was a warranted cause to (mental instability and such). There is certainly much joy and pleasure to be found in such a pursuit for the right person. There are also therapeutic benefits that are worth looking into.

The OP and the heart of the question being asked is "How do you trigger Joy" obviously asked by someone wanting to learn a method of doing so. So for you to turn around and respond with

If you want joy and pleasure, achieving rational values is the right way to go.

However it gives me 'joy' and the positive body feeling when I take a hit of good quality X every few months.

you are offering up two distinct choices and considering the question you have given two answers one explicit and one implied. You make no mention of any extenuating circumstances such as the fact that people with certain mental disorders or emotional problems should not try Ex. You just throw the idea out there, thanks for sharing.

Now as far as you equivocating the safe usage of relatively harmless drug with intoxicating yourself with a bottle of Rye and jumping off of a tall building, that is just flagrant misrepresentative propaganda of the fox news variety.

I stand by my "flagrant misrepresentative propaganda". Joy can no more be found in the bottom, or even the top inch of a Rye bottle any more than you can find it by fucking with the serotonin receptors in your brain. Answering the question "How do you trigger Joy" with the statement "I like to get high every now and then." (the essence of your answer) is the same as answering the question "How can you go fast" with the answer "Jump off a building."

There is such a thing as moderate 'mindful' intoxication but I don't see much point in continuing this conversation with you as you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Good day.

I agree that there is nothing more to talk about as long as you can confuse joy with intoxication no matter what level of that state you are in. If I go to a party where I enjoy the company of those I am with and am stimulated by the surroundings the fact that I may have a couple of drinks is not what is going to cause me to feel joy that element was in play and present before I took my first sip.

[L-C]

The achievement of values.

[K-Mac]

Axiomatic, I used plenty of different drugs in my younger days and while I can't say that X made me feel badly while I was high on it, I would not use the word "joy" to describe it. It was a euphoric and happy sensation, but it wasn't real joy and the crash was awful. (Particularly the more I used it.) I also think it's fair to say that the drug use, and the people I associated with as a result, brought far more despair and sorrow to my life than the temporary euphoria of the drugs ever did. (And I was quite the functioning addict, excelling at good jobs, being sober when necessary, maintaining good relationships with my family, etc.)

Haz, now that I'm a bit older, have been learning more about Objectivism and am getting my life pretty much in order, I can tell you that realizing what your values are and achieving them is the real "high" or joy in life. No drug I ever took made me feel as good as I feel in the arms of my husband, for example. I'm very much looking forward to starting a family with him. I'd much rather have my joy triggered in this fashion than synthetically and falsely with drugs.

[Axiomatic]

Axiomatic, I used plenty of different drugs in my younger days and while I can't say that X made me feel badly while I was high on it, I would not use the word "joy" to describe it. It was a euphoric and happy sensation, but it wasn't real joy and the crash was awful. (Particularly the more I used it.) I also think it's fair to say that the drug use, and the people I associated with as a result, brought far more despair and sorrow to my life than the temporary euphoria of the drugs ever did. (And I was quite the functioning addict, excelling at good jobs, being sober when necessary, maintaining good relationships with my family, etc.)

Haz, now that I'm a bit older, have been learning more about Objectivism and am getting my life pretty much in order, I can tell you that realizing what your values are and achieving them is the real "high" or joy in life. No drug I ever took made me feel as good as I feel in the arms of my husband, for example. I'm very much looking forward to starting a family with him. I'd much rather have my joy triggered in this fashion than synthetically and falsely with drugs.

Your point is well taken, and its not like I use it often nor do I 'associate' with many other users who would be classed as the 'druggy' stereotype. I am not looking for a drug to make me permanently happy. I am making the case for educated use of X for selfish, non-habitual pleasurable recreation (just as some would drink a bottle of wine, for instance). There are also many things one can do to avoid that 'horrible crash' that you speak of too, such as eating bananas, brazil nuts beforehand and taking 5htp supplements afterword to replenish the lost serotonin.

Of course I am in the process of pursuing values that will lead to the joys you are speaking of, but I don't think that invalidates the pursuit of pleasurable activities if they are seen to be worth the experience. I enjoy the substance and it rather than having negative side effects on my life, adds many positive effects. Benefits include introspective insight into subconscious/repressed material which usually leads to a period of reflection of re-evaluation of life goals.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Axiomatic

[K-Mac]

But there's a difference between pleasure and joy, IMO. I think Haz is asking how to achieve real joy in your life, not a moment of pleasure. Joy comes from happiness. Pleasure comes from feeling good. Pleasure will not always make you happy. Perhaps I misunderstood his question??

[Axiomatic]

But there's a difference between pleasure and joy, IMO. I think Haz is asking how to achieve real joy in your life, not a moment of pleasure. Joy comes from happiness. Pleasure comes from feeling good. Pleasure will not always make you happy. Perhaps I misunderstood his question??

No, I apologize, the mistake of definition was mine.