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What is your view of fire departments?

I personally believe in a public fire department system, similar to public libraries.

If you believe in a private fire department, how would such a system work?

What is the Objectivist stance, if there is one?

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How does a private anything work?

If you advocate public firefighters and libraries, why stop there? Why not advocate public banks, schools, hospitals, and anything else you can think of?

Have you read any of Rand's nonfiction?

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Just off the top of my head...

Private donations (Just like most volunteer fire departments are run today)

Insurance Companies could help set them up to limit their losses in the event of a fire.

Maybe if there wasn't a default fire department more people would choose to take other steps like building with concrete instead of wood, installing sprinkler systems in private residential properties, actually having the fire extinguisher in the kitchen, getting their furnace serviced regularly, not storing paint and other flammables inside.

The problem with "public" services is that it creates unconscious citizens... a whole group of people who stop thinking of what is the best course of action or best defence in the case of an emergency because the government 'has it covered'... <_<

Edited by Zip
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Public libraries starve the book market.

I doubt a "library", outside of a university or academic environment, would be a viable concept in a free market. Except, perhaps, collections of rare books that one can pay to browse. There is no such thing as the 'right to books'.

But imagine if every time somebody didn't feel like finding the $8 to buy a book and went to a library, they had purchased the book instead. That would be enormous investment into the book publishing companies. The market would be much bigger, and there would be more incentive to drive for efficiency in publishing. Who knows, we might have had paperbacks for $0.50, or rare books that can be printed on demand at a bookshop.

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I'd guess that the ideal situation would be a series of competing fire-fighting services available to compete in the fire-fighting market.

Once upon a time in merry old England this was the case and people would haggle at the scene of a burning building.

In modern times, I'd imagine it would be a service sold like insurance, ie a subscription based service. You could choose to pay $100 to Company X for 10 minute response time to fires, or pay $150 to company Y who guarantees 8 minutes...etc. (just like pizza delivery competition but more pressing that service levels are achieved).

You would then see building owners go and install Halon systems etc to look after their own needs. Competing fire-fighting companies would also develop novel ways to be better than their competition to attract your business (ie sensors installed, or flying robots to attend the scene or robots that are stored in the attic and descend when needed etc etc.

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there are many ways a private fire department could work. it could be different in every area, there could be competition amongst fire services as others have suggests, some may have a monopoly and serve the whole area, this could be a paid for by a service subscription or it could be a universal, charity service funded by private donations if that is what people chose to do. a private fire service could easily work and to anyone who says it wouldn't be fair, just point out that they could put their hand in their pocket and give to a charity fire service.

your question has shown one of the biggest problems with governent interventions into the market - people quickly lose the ability to imagine life without it. your kids may one day look at you puzzled that you think that cars could be produced by anyone but government.

Public libraries starve the book market.

I doubt a "library", outside of a university or academic environment, would be a viable concept in a free market. Except, perhaps, collections of rare books that one can pay to browse. There is no such thing as the 'right to books'.

there is no right to books and public libraries hurt the market, agreed, but a private library could be a viable concept (look at the success of video rental stores). I am sure many people would be willing to pay some kind of monthly subscription, or small cost per book, to have access to a vast range of titles - I am sure it would work in a big city.

But imagine if every time somebody didn't feel like finding the $8 to buy a book and went to a library, they had purchased the book instead. That would be enormous investment into the book publishing companies. The market would be much bigger, and there would be more incentive to drive for efficiency in publishing. Who knows, we might have had paperbacks for $0.50

or if I go to a (private) library, I can rent the book for $1 and spend the $7 on a cup of coffee and a danish etc.

also, I'm not sure that the publishing market would be that much bigger without libraries as not everyone is willing/able to spend some much money on a load of books that they could get much more cheaply from a library.

or rare books that can be printed on demand at a bookshop.

this is happening somewhere in London <_<

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Rar...ategory=UK+News

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Yes, I suppose that could work. Video rental is dead where I live. It costs about £4 to rent a DVD for the night, and about £6 to buy it forever. The mass-production of DVDs has made them so inexpensive that the rental industry is in decline.

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Here are some additional questions and beliefs that one could have.

"I personally believe in a public electric company, similar to public libraries. If you believe in a private electric company, how would such a system work?"

"I personally believe in a public gas station, similar to public libraries. If you believe in a private gas station, how would such a system work?"

"I personally believe in a public hardware store, similar to public libraries. If you believe in a private hardware store, how would such a system work?"

"I personally believe in a public insurance company, similar to public libraries. If you believe in a private insurance company, how would such a system work?"

"I personally believe in a public grocery store, similar to public libraries. If you believe in a private grocery store, how would such a system work?"

"I personally believe in a public movie theater, similar to public libraries. If you believe in a private movie theater, how would such a system work?"

Try reading something like Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.

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In modern times, I'd imagine it would be a service sold like insurance, ie a subscription based service.

If I recall correctly, modern fire departments started out exactly like that. Building owners would buy insurance from businesses that would also provide fire-fighting services. The owners would then place a plaque on the front of their building to identify to the firefighters that they were contracted to serve a given building. If memory further serves me, I think there are old buildings in UK cities that still bear those plaques, though naturally today they're just curiosities.

You would then see building owners go and install Halon systems etc to look after their own needs.

More likely the impetus for this or that system will come from insurers, as already happens now. If you buy building or contents insurance today your premiums will vary depending on the security and fire-danger levels of that building and contents, and the contracts will also specify that you must keep various systems (eg alarms, sprinklers etc) fully functional. In business the contracts often get tailored specifically to each site, complete with requirements for this or that system along with regular inspections and tests whose records must be presented to claims assessors upon demand.

Competing fire-fighting companies would also develop novel ways to be better than their competition to attract your business.

Unless the insurers themselves run firefighting operations, I strongly suspect that the most common arrangement (though by no means the only one permissible) will be that the fire-fighters will be independent contractors whose primary clients will be insurance companies rather than building owners themselves.

What I also suspect is likely is a privatisation of written Standards. Instead of there being a single body with the monopoly on the formulation of standards or accreditation of formulators, there may be a number of them. The standards writers would then be in competition with each other, just as say Kosher certification bodies are now.

JJM

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I struggle to understand how many things could be privatized simply because they are so huge. Examples: Fire Fighters, Police, and Road Construction. Isn't justice a right? And shouldn't police be provided because of this?

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I struggle to understand how many things could be privatized simply because they are so huge. Examples: Fire Fighters, Police, and Road Construction. Isn't justice a right? And shouldn't police be provided because of this?

I grew up where volunteer firefighters were the norm. They also put on some great dances/music/beer gardens to help raise funds. Police cannot be privatized as they hold the government monopoly on force though I'm sure some anarcho-capitalist would disagree. Roads are constructed by contracting out private companies. A privately owned system of roads is much more complex than private firefighters and worth its own topic.

I'd guess there would be a mixture of groups to replace government firefighters. Non-profit, volunteer agencies could provide protection for many communities. A mixture of insurance and private firefighters would provide a paid alternative. Insurance companies like to protect their investments and would have a strong motivation to minimize damage and injuries.

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I struggle to understand how many things could be privatized simply because they are so huge. Examples: Fire Fighters, Police, and Road Construction. Isn't justice a right? And shouldn't police be provided because of this?

I suggest you stop posting questions to the Forum until after you've read the "Virtue of Selfishness" and "Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal." Your question is explicitly addressed in there.

You shouldn't use this website as a means to learn Objectivism. People post here to discuss or clarify their understanding of Rand's ideas after reading them. You should also keep in mind that members here have varying degrees of familiarity and command of the philosophy and what they claim is an Objectivist position could very well be incorrect or inprecise. The only reliable way to understand Rand is to read Rand.

To answer your question: yes, Law Enforcement and Courts are a legitimate part of government and should not be privatized. As for why that is so, I again, refer you to the aforementioned books.

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I suggest you stop posting questions to the Forum until after you've read the "Virtue of Selfishness" and "Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal." Your question is explicitly addressed in there.

You shouldn't use this website as a means to learn Objectivism. People post here to discuss or clarify their understanding of Rand's ideas after reading them. You should also keep in mind that members here have varying degrees of familiarity and command of the philosophy and what they claim is an Objectivist position could very well be incorrect or inprecise. The only reliable way to understand Rand is to read Rand.

To answer your question: yes, Law Enforcement and Courts are a legitimate part of government and should not be privatized. As for why that is so, I again, refer you to the aforementioned books.

I read The Virtue of Selfishness, and was planning on reading Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal next. Are these topics covered in it?

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I struggle to understand how many things could be privatized simply because they are so huge. Examples: Fire Fighters, Police, and Road Construction. Isn't justice a right? And shouldn't police be provided because of this?

Military and police powers and the power to provide justice can only be exercised by government, because they require the use of force against criminals, including retributive force, to punish them for their crimes. If that were left to private entities, there would be anarchy instead of a society of individual rights.

Services, on the other hand (such as extinguishing fires, health care, or transportation), are not rights. They are the fruits of people's creative mind and labor, and they should be left to the people who create them to dispose of them as they wish: sell them, in exchange for the fruits of other people's labor (with the use of some type of money, for the sake of efficiency), or give it away for free, if they so desire. Just as long as it is not being taken away from them through forced taxation, by the government, in order to provide so called "public services".

Perhaps you should read this page, especially the couple of sentences which describe Laissez-Faire Capitalism. And then, for some more quick questions, you should browse the free Ayn Rand Lexicon. I'll link you to the Capitalism entry. And, of course, you can search or browse this forum for answers to your questions. Not to mention reading Rand's non-fiction and the works of other notable Objectivists.

I think it is courtesy to take some time to find an answer to a question (through those resources), and only then post it in a new thread, if you require clarification. While people on this forum welcome questions, they also like to be challenged rather than be asked to repeat something that is so basic.

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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This topic got me thinking. Could there be a case where fire fighters were acting in a police fashion? For example, putting out a fire created by arson or another situation where a fire is created by carelessness and jumps property?

I was looking at this in a similar way that the CDC might act to prevent epidemics as part of the military. That subject is related but may require it's own topic.

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This topic got me thinking. Could there be a case where fire fighters were acting in a police fashion?

In my community, all of our police officers double as fire fighters. I think that's fairly common in suburbs and smaller towns.

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Could there be a case where fire fighters were acting in a police fashion? For example, putting out a fire created by arson or another situation where a fire is created by carelessness and jumps property?
In what way would that be a "police action"?
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Question: are there laws in palce preventing private firms from acting as firefighters?

As to arson, while that is a legitimate crime that should be pursued, it isn't pursued by the fire department. As far as I know various fire departments ahve arson investigators, but they don't have any of the powers common to police; they can't arrest people or execute search warrants, for example. Instead they work with the police.

That would also be the case for private firms. All the more so if they were owned by insurance companies. Insurers don't pay on self-inflicted dammages, so thye ahve every incentive to prevent that kind of fraud. If someone is out setting fires for the hell of it, it's also in the insurance companies' interest to stop him as swiftly as possible.

There's also a question about fire codes. THings like ahving smoke detectors, sprinklers and emergency exits. I'm not sure whether the fire department can levy fines or shut a place down when the owners don't comply. Insurance companies would carry out similar inspections and either 1) deny coverage if you don't follow their recomendations or 2) charge you higher premiums if your risk of fire (or increased damage during fire) is higher than the norm. This is common today for theft insurance, car insurance, etc (we got a discount from our insurer when we put in an alarm system, for example. Safe drivers pay less in premiums, too).

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Question: are there laws in palce preventing private firms from acting as firefighters?

I don't know about household or other urban situations, but it doesn't look like it in relation to industrial sites. My last employer leased land from a steelworks with spare land. That steelworks used an outside contractor (formerly Serco, now Tungsten) for its internal emergency services, including firefighting needs. Part of our lease contract was that Serco/Tungsten also served us and another lessee.

I ran across this - Serco is the main private contractor for firefighting and training of local staff in it for many airports. And I am aware that there are private firms who specialise in fighting oilwell fires, such as the famous Boots & Coots - I guess I am showing my age, but I also remember Red Adair. Hellfighters, anyone?

That would also be the case for private firms. All the more so if they were owned by insurance companies.

They already exist. These firms would also be of various types, such as specialist private investigators (of course) but others that many people might not have heard of such as loss adjusters, who as well as helping claimants make their claims would no doubt be on the look-out for insurance fraud. I'm sure there are other types of investigators and specialists, too.

JJM

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I struggle to understand how many things could be privatized simply because they are so huge. Examples: Fire Fighters, Police, and Road Construction. Isn't justice a right? And shouldn't police be provided because of this?

Fire fighters, and road construction are already done privately in a large number of areas. We don't have to wonder about how they work, we can simply observe.

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I struggle to understand how many things could be privatized simply because they are so huge. Examples: Fire Fighters, Police, and Road Construction. Isn't justice a right? And shouldn't police be provided because of this?

Size is not a relevant factor at all. A country's armed forces will be huge even in small countries, but that's a function of their use and organization. Anything else varies in size depending on many factors. A police force, for example, can be as small as a handful of people in rural areas, and as many as tens of thousands in mayor cities.

But if we went by size, then anything other than small business would be too large to be private. Consider Wal-Mart, any major airline, Ford, Microsoft, any utility, etc.

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In what way would that be a "police action"?

To be clear I'm in agreement at this time that fire departments should be private. I am playing devil's advocate and looking at it from another angle to test that belief. If someone else finds the idea interesting please respond. The following is just a situation that could cause trouble in that world.

The police often provide protection before before a crime occurs, such as guarding protesters when there is a high probability of violence. If someone owns a house (or it could be 2000 acres of forest) that catches on fire and does not have proper protection by private means, they could endanger other homes nearby. It would be crazy to wait until that fire passes to other homes and then try to put it out, never touching the fire on the land of the dysfunctional land owner. To end the threat the fire poses to everyone close by, the fire at its base would have to be put out. Now a private company would have no right to trespass. Only someone like the police could enter that land to eliminate the threat.

Should police contract out a private force to go in and eliminate that fire, under the authority of the police? I could think of other, less extreme situations when firefighters would gain a great advantage by being able to access private land.

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Now a private company would have no right to trespass. Only someone like the police could enter that land to eliminate the threat.
I see: I don't whether that is correct. I doubt that it is, and I know that it should not be. When circumstances on another man's property pose an immediate threat to your own, you have the right to protect your property which would include trespassing to eliminate that threat. A private company who is your agent has the same right (it derives from your right). But I don't know whether that right is recognized under the law.
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