Dancing as non-art

[Seanjos]

I've just returned from Ibiza and I've changed my mind about dancing. I thought it could only offer a primitive level of enjoyment and avoided it preferring just to talk when out.

We tried one of the famous 'super-clubs' and just thought I'd 'av-a-go'.

I found that when with with the same people afterwards we'd moved forward more than about 15 minutes of talking as a consequence of just enjoying dancing around like an idiot.

What are your thoughts about dance and it's purpose in social contexts?

[tito]

It's quite fun when you stop caring how ridiculous you probably look!

[D'kian]

I don't get dancing. It's little more than mindless movement to very bad, very loud music.

[FeatherFall]

I don't get dancing. It's little more than mindless movement to very bad, very loud music.

Is this how you'd dance? One can dance to good music at a reasonable volume. Attention to beat and style rules out mindlessness. Dance may not be art if it is done simply for recreation (I'm undecided), but dance performances can be awesome works of art.

[D'kian]

Is this how you'd dance?

If I were to dance, no, that's not how I'd go about it. But that's a big "if," along the lines of "If the Earth were suddenly to take up a polar orbit about the Sun...."

That's how most pople dance, though.

but dance performances can be awesome works of art.

Certainly. But a dance performance is worlds remove from what people think of as dancing in a social context (clubbing and such).

[Seanjos]

I don't get dancing. It's little more than mindless movement to very bad, very loud music.

Exactly what I thought.

The music is bad, loud and I'd never buy it; but in that environment with strobes, spray jets and very tasty women it served a purpose and was excellent.

I noticed the people who try to fake it with drink & drugs and that I didn't need either. That whole night felt clean, rational and that I was actually doing something i.e something I'd earned as opposed to just killing time like the fakers.

I'm absolutely convinced it is the rational, moral people who avoid these environments who are capable of having the best time there.

Although, with higher standards, such a person would need a place on this level. The club was called Space.

http://www.space-ibiza.es/en/#/disco/ Click on 'the club' to check out inside.

I'm going to re-read Branden's 'The psychology of Enjoyment'. I need to understand more...

[megr.ferg]

I don't get dancing. It's little more than mindless movement to very bad, very loud music.

When it comes to club dancing I agree, but don’t discount all social dancing. I have found more organized dance venues very enjoyable. There are places all over that offer social dances and lessons for more traditional ball room dances like tango, waltz, and fox trot or more street dances like swing or blues. Though such organizations dancing has become a big part of my life.

For me Dancing is a great outlet for personal expression. The arts have never been my thing, but when I found dancing I realized what I had been missing. It gave me a way channel feelings an emotions I had floating around into something creative and fun. This of course did not happen on the first day. Before I could improvise and add in my own flare I had to learn the steps and the basic rules of leading and following. Once I got the basics I could really start listening to the music and letting my body respond to what I heard. I found that having this place in my life to release some of my feelings brought a much needed balance. My mind was more clear at work and I had more mental energy.

I imagine that people who passionately peruse any form of the arts have the potential to experience these kind of gains. What I think makes dancing unique is that it adds a social aspect. You can learn a surprising amount about some one after a few songs when dancing as a couple. Unlike most social situations you are actual touching them. You can feel how assertive or passive their movements are, if their hands sweat, and how responsive they are. In addition you get to see them in action. You get to see how they handle themselves when you miss a beat or someone bumps a toe. For me it turns into a tiny social experiment. From the more intimate view the dance connection (or lack there of) I get a sneak peak at who someone is, and they get a peak of who I am.

I also agree that the music has to be good. There are some nights when the DJ just stinks and I can’t get into it.

[K-Mac]

Even club dancing has value. What better way to enjoy music than to move (or sing) to it? For me, even driving to certain types of music is the same experience. Feeling the sounds and moving with them can bring you great joy. Screw the idiots around you. Who cares that they think or what drugs they're on? And if you can find someone of value around you, all the better to dance with someone else.

[D'kian]

Even club dancing has value. What better way to enjoy music than to move (or sing) to it?

Is it even possible to enjoy what passes for music in such places these days?

Feeling the sounds and moving with them can bring you great joy.

Maybe. I've never felt it, nor the need to move to any music. I enjoy singing long to some songs I like, but not all. Sometimes I enjoy them most by lying perfectly still, eyes closed and concentrating entirely on the music and song.

[tito]

Is it even possible to enjoy what passes for music in such places these days?

I don't think the implication of that question is justifiable. Unless you have discovered a way to scientifically map music to emotions?

[John Link]

I'm going to re-read Branden's 'The psychology of Enjoyment'. I need to understand more...

I think you probably need to enjoy more. Although one might get an explanation of enjoyment from a book, the enjoyment comes not from the explanation but from the act of enjoying. Go out and have some more fun!

John Link

[Maximus]

I think you probably need to enjoy more. Although one might get an explanation of enjoyment from a book, the enjoyment comes not from the explanation but from the act of enjoying. Go out and have some more fun!

John Link

That's right. Objectivism doesn't mean that you have to be so tight assed that you squeak when you walk. Loosen up, enjoy life - you'll live longer.

[JMeganSnow]

I dance alone in the basement for exercise, and I think it's great! I always get depressed when I'm stuck somewhere that I can't dance.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

I started to learn how to dance when I really angered a woman I wanted to go out with and overlooked the fact that she had been dancing for a long time and was almost a professional, but I didn't realize that when I asked her out for a dance date. In a panic, because I didn't know how to dance, I asked her to postpone the date until I learned how to dance. She recommended Swing dancing to Swing music ( my favorite), so I started taking dancing lessons.

Dancing is definitely an art form, and I think it concretizes motions going along with emotions. I can't quite put it into words, as I haven't formally studied dancing or music, but having pre-established dance moves that you both know and can move along with the music is really enjoyable. And there is really something charming and romantic about holding a beautiful woman in your arms as you dance to the music, with you (the male) in control and guiding her motions and protecting her from the other dancers. It's very graceful, and since the male leads in Swing dancing, he has to interpret his motions to the music and guide her using special signals delivered with the male's left forearm. When she responds appropriately (follows his lead), it's just wonderful! It's rather like some sort of interactive art that you create as a couple. I think that type of dancing really concretizes masculinity and femininity, in motion.

I wouldn't want to dance by just moving my body around randomly and her doing likewise, which is more the modern way. To me, that's too primitive.

By the way guys, don't ever ask a dancer out for a dance date and then make excuses about not being ready -- I mean EVER! That's far more worse than being clumsy and stepping on her toes.

Learn how to dance, and then enjoy the company of a woman while you are creating art. Swing dance lessons are not very expensive, unless you get private lessons, and there are many places that will teach you how to dance and then have a social dance after the lessons. In social dancing, you ask a different girl to dance with you for each song, unless you are there with your romance partner. If you are single, its a great way to meet girls and it helps to build your masculine sense of self and self-confidence around woman.

[K-Mac]

Is it even possible to enjoy what passes for music in such places these days?

Sure! There are many different types of clubs featuring many types of music and dance. I prefer to go to places that will play my requests. Then I'm guaranteed to hear good music.

Sometimes I enjoy them most by lying perfectly still, eyes closed and concentrating entirely on the music and song.

Yes, I totally agree. This can be wonderful as well. Just depends on my mood.

I dance alone in the basement for exercise, and I think it's great!

It is great exercise as well! I dance in the stand-up tanning bed sometimes. Gotta do something to pass the time, and it ensures and even tan.

[kainscalia]

You have OBVIOUSLY never danced Salsa, at a latin nightclub:

And then there is the Lambada...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AfTl5Vg73A

I like dancing at Latin Clubs because the music there is so much more varied than what they play at American clubs- and yes that includes gay clubs. I love dancing for the joy of dancing, not to dry-hump someone. My mother was a professional ballerina in her youth (they have such short careers) but she loved dancing salsa, merengue, etcetera, and she taught me how to dance- not at a professional level, but well enough.

Of the things I want to learn to dance in the future, possibly ballroom dancing, and I just LOVE the dances from the 1920s- I've actually recorded some of the pieces from that era (particularly "Five foot two, eyes of blue") and put them on the net, I enjoy them so much.

I don't get dancing. It's little more than mindless movement to very bad, very loud music.

Edited June 18, 2009 by kainscalia

[D'kian]

You have OBVIOUSLY never danced Salsa, at a latin nightclub:

I've never danced Salsa, I'll give you that much. But I'm quite familiar with it. I've heard every kind there is, including the Cuban versions which are supposed to be better. I'm also familiar with the Danzon, Norteño, the Tango, the Jarabe (in both the Jalisco and Nayarit versions) and possibly most kinds of Latin dance and other types of music.

I like none of them.

I like dancing at Latin Clubs because the music there is so much more varied than what they play at American clubs- and yes that includes gay clubs.

I suppose if the clientele is diverse enough there would be variety, for however much that could possibly be worth.

This is the soccer thread all over again <sigh>

[~Sophia~]

You have OBVIOUSLY never danced Salsa, at a latin nightclub:

I agree. I have been taking private lessons with a world champion in Salsa for the past year and a half now. Latin nightclub scene is unique. For example, most people don't drink alcohol because they are there FOR the dancing.

[kainscalia]

Well, it could be down to simple preferences. Some people simply don't like to dance because they don't have a reaction to music. As the old saying goes, Lo que natura no da, Salamanca no presta - my brother doesn't like dancing, but that's because he has two left feet and absolutely no rythm whatsoever.

I like none of them.

[D'kian]

Well, it could be down to simple preferences. Some people simply don't like to dance because they don't have a reaction to music.

As I said, the soccer thread all over again. Except I do understand dancing as performance art. I don't understand a compulsive feeling to "move" to music, or to play it loud enough to shatter eardrums ten miles away (ok, maybe I exagerate a bit; five miles away).

I react to music, though, when there's something to react to. Music can bring up emotions, after all. I feel plenty when I listen to music I like, just no desire to prance around to the rythm.

I am aware this makes me somewhat unusual. Apparently I relate to music in ways most people don't. For example, I could care less whether I've background music when working, reading or driving. I play music only when I intend to listen to it. I do play music when I drive but I listen to it (driving's simple enough I can do both at the same time), sometimes I tune the news instead. Also I intensely dislike loud music, even if it's music I like (I never play it very loud). Every place I've eber known where dancing tales place, and I do mean from parties at private homes, to weddings, dance clubs, discos, etc etc play music too damn loud.

So there.

As the old saying goes, Lo que natura no da, Salamanca no presta

You are aware that "natura" is not really a word, right?

[fountainhead777]

I am the same way as you D'kian and some others. I do not quite get dancing and do not enjoy it too much. I react to music I like in my own way but usually it is more internal.

I think it is like general music taste different for most people and for some it just doesnt quite appeal.

I think that performance dancing is an art however. There is a big difference between recreational and professional performance dancing and they serve different purposes obviously.

Edited June 18, 2009 by fountainhead777

[D'kian]

I am the same way as you D'kian and some others. I do not quite get dancing and do not enjoy it too much. I react to music I like in my own way but usually it is more internal.

I think it is like general music taste different for most people and for some it just doesnt quite appeal.

Perhaps. Very little of the music I enjoy is suitable for any kind of dancing (though I'm sure someone half-stoned out of his mind can dance to anything; I mean, they already do). But I don't discount the possibility that I'm just odd. I am quite eccentric in many other areas, too. I don't mind, I just wish people would stop suggesting I should.

[K-Mac]

Well, I for one, am not suggesting anyone or everyone *should* dance or even like it, I'm just explaining why I do for those that can see no good or usefulness in it. I certainly don't have a problem with those who don't, just like I don't have a problem with those who don't like sports, but I can at least understand where the other side is coming from. (Most of the time, anyway.)

I'm curious, D'kian, what sort of music you listen to that no dance would be suitable for?

[Ifat Glassman]

With plenty of music (that I like) I can barely sit still. I've got to dance.

I remember when I was 7 I was watching a movie about a Rock n' Roll star, and when he was playing "balls of fire" I got up and started dancing like crazy - the music was just too energetic to sit still.

Is dancing art? Oh yeah. It most definitely is. You just need to see the right dancers to understand how abstract things like freedom, self-confidence, nobility, passion etc' take on a physical form. It's like it hits you in the face.

It's also a great form of self expression, but it doesn't come right away, it takes time, exactly like megr.ferg described it:

For me Dancing is a great outlet for personal expression. The arts have never been my thing, but when I found dancing I realized what I had been missing. It gave me a way channel feelings an emotions I had floating around into something creative and fun. This of course did not happen on the first day. Before I could improvise and add in my own flare I had to learn the steps and the basic rules of leading and following. Once I got the basics I could really start listening to the music and letting my body respond to what I heard.

I also like the following (I find it interesting. I never thought of it that way or noticed it):

What I think makes dancing unique is that it adds a social aspect. You can learn a surprising amount about some one after a few songs when dancing as a couple. Unlike most social situations you are actual touching them. You can feel how assertive or passive their movements are, if their hands sweat, and how responsive they are. In addition you get to see them in action. You get to see how they handle themselves when you miss a beat or someone bumps a toe. For me it turns into a tiny social experiment. From the more intimate view the dance connection (or lack there of) I get a sneak peak at who someone is, and they get a peak of who I am.

You know, I'm not sure how accurate this is. To give you an example - I would normally hold hands with very little contrast or strength, but yet I'm not a passive person. The way I hold hands does show something about me, but the interpretation is not necessarily so straight forward in all cases.

Would be great if you can tell more about what you learned (the meaning of certain styles/ movements), or give an example.

[D'kian]

I'm curious, D'kian, what sort of music you listen to that no dance would be suitable for?

RUSH, Pat Benatar, Meat Loaf, Joan Jett, various kinds of classical music.