Dancing as non-art

[kainscalia]

Meat Loaf is perfectly danceable. Even his cover of songs such as "Dead Ringer for Love" are. There's a difference between dance and an epileptic fit, however, while someone who understands music will dance, many people seem to just convulse.

Joan Jett too. Pat Benatar's "Fire and Ice" is excellent for mood dancing--- and as far as classical music goes, there are very few compositions you *cannot* set good coreography to - I have seen disasters of bad coreography, but I also got to see an incredibly impressive Beethoven's Ninth that was dramatized onstage, with the choral finale being he most lavish, of course. Beethoven's "The Creatures of Prometheus" also worked beautifully.

And then you're not even addressing the whole genre of Ballet there. Even works that are no longer as musically attractive as they once were (such as Monteverdi's first full-fledged opera L'Orfeo, which some claim as the first opera in the world despite the evidence of La Serva Padrona coming first) become much fresher with the application of dance, as Gordi Savall's version of L'Orfeo did in the Barcelona Liceu (

). I do have a soft spot for L'Orfeo and do not consider it boring like some of my colleagues- I like the whole of Monteverdi's opus.

RUSH, Pat Benatar, Meat Loaf, Joan Jett, various kinds of classical music.

[D'kian]

Meat Loaf is perfectly danceable. Even his cover of songs such as "Dead Ringer for Love" are. There's a difference between dance and an epileptic fit, however, while someone who understands music will dance, many people seem to just convulse.

I don't see that anyone can dance to "Paradise by the Dashboard Light," "Bat Out Of Hell," or"Anything For Love."

Joan Jett too.

How? Surely some of her covers are appropriate for dance, but not her own songs like "Bad Reputation," or "Fake Friends"

Pat Benatar's "Fire and Ice" is excellent for mood dancing---

Maybe. My favorites are her lesser known work like "In The Heat of the Night," "Too Long A Soldier," "Tret Me Right," and the acoustic version of "We Belong."

and as far as classical music goes, there are very few compositions you *cannot* set good coreography to -

Perhaps. But the next time I see a bunch of twentysomethings dance to classical music it will be the first. Hell, the next time I see abunch of twentysomethings out of school listen to classical music out fo their own volition will aslo be the first.

And then you're not even addressing the whole genre of Ballet there.

Again, there's very little ballet dancing at dance clubs. Ballet is a highly athletic artistic medium which requires years of practice to perfect. It's not something weekend dancers can even contemplate in their dreams.

[kainscalia]

How? Surely some of her covers are appropriate for dance, but not her own songs like "Bad Reputation," or "Fake Friends"

I'd show you, but geography interferes.

Perhaps. But the next time I see a bunch of twentysomethings dance to classical music it will be the first. Hell, the next time I see abunch of twentysomethings out of school listen to classical music out fo their own volition will aslo be the first.

Come to the Vocal Arts Symposium in the summer, you'll get to see a couple o' hundred who don't only listen to it, they perform it- quite a few of them are something-teens, too. There's a ton of other programs of that kind.

Again, there's very little ballet dancing at dance clubs. Ballet is a highly athletic artistic medium which requires years of practice to perfect. It's not something weekend dancers can even contemplate in their dreams.

I'm sorry, I thought the discussion had taken a tangent from music in nightclubs to whether or not some music was danceable or not. My bad on that.

[Alfa]

From what i've seen of club dancing it looks more like some sort of primitive mating ritual. I've never liked it, despite that fact that if I enjoy the music I find it very difficult to sit still. Perhaps part of my negative attitude towards club dancing is also that I have no clue how it's done. The moves seem so arbitrary and I suspect my sense of rythm is lacking.

On a few occasions though I have really enjoyd dancing at clubs, but this has been of very good clubs where everyone has primarily enjoyed the music(singing, dancing and generally just having a great night out). In most clubs though it's been too loud, people are too drunk, it's extremely crowded and most guys are there in hope of getting laid.

Ballroom dancing on the other hand seems like it could be alot of fun. I've actually made a promise to myself to have a go at tango as soon as I have the time.

[D'kian]

I'd show you, but geography interferes.

I still don't see how.

[K-Mac]

RUSH, Pat Benatar, Meat Loaf, Joan Jett, various kinds of classical music.

I would think ballet, ballroom (such as the waltz) or contemporary dance would cover most of classical.

As for rock music, and even metal, contemporary, jazz or jive could be well-suited.

D'kian, do they have the show So You Think You Can Dance there in Mexico? If so, you ought to check it out. Although the host and judges can be annoying, the dancing, choreography and costume design is usually stunning and you can see many types of dance with different types of music. Here are some clips...some of my favorites and some with music I typically wouldn't think of dancing to and/or of songs you mentioned.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBucli_Kj2A (I wouldn't have had any idea how to dance to that music, but this guy is one of my absolute favs...awesome!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7WxOIgxDmc...feature=related (skip forward to about 1:10 when dance starts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq-h4TXyGrM (so quirky, weird and sexy, but I love it!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HXBZCv9Rnk (Anything for Love on Dancing w/ the Stars)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_I2WtD0alY (Bat Out of Hell on DWTS)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bgMvaviExw (Ha ha! I couldn't resist throwing this in there. It's amazing.)

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bgMvaviExw (Ha ha! I couldn't resist throwing this in there. It's amazing.)

Soviet Break Dancing

[estheticidea]

I knew I had to reply in this thread...

YES!

This is a great thing about SOCIAL dancing: it is an art, and it is at the same time a great way to socialize!

I organize a weekly social dance of Argentine Tango, aka "milonga" in Gainesville, Fl. A beautiful (in my eyes) example of my kind of tango is shown here:

. Javier Rodriguez and Geraldine Rojas are my heroes (they are no longer together).

The website of my social dance is www.tangoyte.com . The name, "Tango y Té" means "tango and tea", something like "tango tearoom," to denote that it is for enjoying tango and other innocent things that go with it.

Every week I get to re-create a small benevolent universe, where every woman that enters desires to be embraced by me... where everybody smiles, and people tell me, "great music, David" and I think to myself: "I'm so happy that I created the setting that allowed you to notice it!"

Dare I add also that, in a sense, Argentine Tango is the most philosophical dance of all...? This is a long story, I don't have time now. Let me just say a few things. The only way to dance beautifully together is to master your own individual posture, balance and *walking*--freedom, fluidity and lightness are achieved only by being grounded all the way down.

Dancing confronts you with truths about yourself: you have to move, literally, as a whole person. In Argentine Tango, all movements are fundamentally, movements of the body as a whole, and the legs follow the body, as they are literally pulled along by the motions of the body. The interesting thing about dancing this way is: the only way to dance beautifully is to be conscious only of the music and how it feels to move to it, for yourself and your partner. You can't fake it.

(What I wrote here is not generally understood, as there are many misconceptions in the way tango is danced today which I also continue to wrestle with in learning this dance.)

[D'kian]

D'kian, do they have the show So You Think You Can Dance there in Mexico?

I've no idea. I don't watch any kind of "reality shows."

[Thales]

I've posted this before, but since it's appropriate to this thread: David Elsewhere:

He starts at about 40 seconds in ...

[~Sophia~]

One can draw yet not create art. Same thing with dancing. It can be art in a certain context. It is not by default.

The interesting thing about dancing this way is: the only way to dance beautifully is to be conscious only of the music and how it feels to move to it, for yourself and your partner. You can't fake it.

But only after you have already invested a considerable amount of work into every detail of mastering the technique. You won't dance beautifully without it. It should look easy and flowing in the end but there is nothing easy about getting to that place.

[estheticidea]

One can draw yet not create art. Same thing with dancing. It can be art in a certain context. It is not by default.

But only after you have already invested a considerable amount of work into every detail of mastering the technique. You won't dance beautifully without it. It should look easy and flowing in the end but there is nothing easy about getting to that place.

In order to master the technique you have to start also by feeling what your body is doing and isolating/analyzing it. Then you have to integrate each action into a whole.

In the end, it should not just look easy, it should FEEL easy. The point is: feeling is using your senses. It is required for being objective, just as looking is, but in the case of dancing it is more important to feel than to look.

[kainscalia]

In short, I would have to demonstrate it to you. Face to face.

Clear enough?

I still don't see how.

Esthe, although I am sure that by now you may have seen it, are you familiar with the movie by the Spanish Director Saura, called "Tango"? If you have not seen it, buy it off amazon!

Incidentally, have you used any of the compositions by Astor Piazzola for your tango dances?

I knew I had to reply in this thread...

YES!

Edited June 20, 2009 by kainscalia

[gags]

I'm a pathetic dancer. However, my wife loves it and my daughter actually danced in her first Broadway show in NYC this past weekend. I've come to appreciate it as an art form, when done well and with a certain level of precision and expertise.

[estheticidea]

Esthe, although I am sure that by now you may have seen it, are you familiar with the movie by the Spanish Director Saura, called "Tango"? If you have not seen it, buy it off amazon!

I think for a lot of people here it would be instructive to think about what it is, and look at examples of things that are done primarily for show, as contrasted by things that are done with an earnest belief. A lot of people, when they find out that others admire them for something they do, shift their focus and lose the original authentic impulse. I think from what I remember, the substance of the movie "Tango" is merely "for show."

When it comes to art it is easy to make this mistake, because the artist wants to show something. Plus, in dancing, when you do a choreography, you have to think about what the audience perceives. But this fact should not become a reason to bypass your own consciousness!

When you learn a social dance like A.T. it helps that you have one more consciousness to keep your head straight (your partner.) I'm not sure how this applies to ballroom though. Ballroom does not have a good record of adopting dances like swing and tango, as it looses a lot of the sweetness and expression of the originals and creates a bad charicature of them.

Incidentally, have you used any of the compositions by Astor Piazzola for your tango dances?

Piazzola created more modern music primarily for listening, not for dancing. Even though it is sophisticated music, qua tango music it didn't retain the sophistication of the older tango music that makes it a joy to dance to.

[megr.ferg]

You know, I'm not sure how accurate this is. To give you an example - I would normally hold hands with very little contrast or strength, but yet I'm not a passive person. The way I hold hands does show something about me, but the interpretation is not necessarily so straight forward in all cases.

Would be great if you can tell more about what you learned (the meaning of certain styles/ movements), or give an example.

As far as feeling how passive or assertive your dance partner is, I was looking at this primarily though the eyes of a follow. When I’m dancing, I’m waiting for the lead to initiate the movement. Each lead will do this with a different amount of speed, pressure, motion etc. In my own dancing I have run across some leads who are tentative, and just don’t seem to have the confidence to direct me (luckily most of them improve quickly or stop dancing). On the other end of the spectrum there are leads who are extremely direct, for them every beat of the dance is controlled. Most leads fall somewhere in-between. By feeling a man’s lead I can get an idea of how assertive he is. Of course it is important to take in to account his personal style and dancing experience.

I think you are right when it come to the follow. It is her responsibility to wait for direction from the lead so there is little opportunity for her to be assertive during the dance, but I think she still has ample opportunity to display confidence. For example when the lead releases her temporarily for a free spin or other individual movement some follows will rush back to the lead in a panic to have guidance again. On the other hand a confident follow will continue the move with the same speed and direction she received form the lead and will only stop when the lead comes back to her. As the level of dancing progresses the individual moves can become quite elaborate. It seems to me that the more confident follows take more advantage of these unexpected breaks in connection. They are not thrown off because they have the guts to handle being left alone without much warning.

[K-Mac]

I've no idea. I don't watch any kind of "reality shows."

I guess it's a "reality show" but it's basically a dance competition. Anyway, like I said in my earlier post, you can see many different types of dance to many different types of music on that show. They have great ballroom dance tournaments on public TV here too, but I guess that's too "real" for you.

[kainscalia]

I think for a lot of people here it would be instructive to think about what it is....

Your judgment of Saura's "Tango" is superficial at best. Saura's conception of the film as such is to explore the passion behind the dance, as well as a suggestion of its beginnings. During the early part of the previous century it was essentially the dance of the 'bajo mundo' - the underworld, thugs and gangsters, and its place was the brothel. It took a long time before it was embraced in wider circles, and Saura's movie touches upon these origins as a dance created by the immigrants, the passion behind the dance, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QASkALYFvtE. I find your artistic judgment to be inexact-- I have seen very few Saura movies where he was off track (Elisa, Vida Mia and Cria two of them, even if they had the incomparable Geraldine Chaplin). Tango and Goya in Bordeaux are some of his greatest achievements, along with Carmen, El Amor Brujo and Bodas de Sangre.

Piazzola created more modern music primarily for listening, not for dancing. Even though it is sophisticated music, qua tango music it didn't retain the sophistication of the older tango music that makes it a joy to dance to.

You are wrong there: Piazzola created specific pieces for dancing, one of them is the "Pequena Suite Portena," among five or six others - and then there's his tango-opera "Maria de Buenos Aires" which includes a dance, though this is cut from most recordings... and I'm sorry, but to accuse Piazzola of lack of sophistication is probably one of the greatest musical misjudgments I have ever heard. If anything his compositions take the tango genre and lift it to a higher level of sophistication (his Fugato alone!). Piazzola was one of the preferred students of Nadia Boulanger, one of the century's most influential composers, theorists and teachers. There is a reason why prominent classical musicians started 'discovering' his music in recent years.

[MissLemon]

I have found more organized dance venues very enjoyable. There are places all over that offer social dances and lessons for more traditional ball room dances like tango, waltz, and fox trot or more street dances like swing or blues. Though such organizations dancing has become a big part of my life.

What I think makes dancing unique is that it adds a social aspect.

I also agree that the music has to be good.

Megr.ferg: I can relate to much of what you have said.

I am new here and this is my first reply except my introduction, so "Hello" to the forum.

When I read "Altas Shrugged" a few months ago, and became aware of the philosophy of Ayn Rand, the first thing I wanted to do is see if there were some things I could do to improve my own life. More social interaction and physical fitness came to mind as personal goals to start with.

I recently began studying Argentine Tango, coincidentally, at EstheticIdea's above mentioned "Tango Tearoom" and although I have not learned all the basics yet, I have found much to value in the learning process. One of the reasons I was attracted to this dance is the social interaction it presents. Another was the delightful tango music which inspires joyful movement. Commitment to a weekly social dance class has helped me to interact in a positive way with others, something I'd been overlooking since I tend to be a bit of a loner.

Some benefits I have experienced so far include better balance, coordination and concentration. From a beginners perspective, I highly recommend social dancing and particularly Argentine Tango!

[D'kian]

I guess it's a "reality show" but it's basically a dance competition.

Let it go. You won't get me to say anything good about dancing, nor express any interest in it. And believe me you don't wanto to hear my rant about television (I don't want to, either ).

[kainscalia]

I've said this before, but there seems to be something rather reminiscent of a Hemlock Smoothie here.

Let it go. You won't get me to say anything good about dancing, nor express any interest in it. And believe me you don't wanto to hear my rant about television (I don't want to, either ).

[estheticidea]

Your judgment of Saura's "Tango" is superficial at best. Saura's conception of the film as such is to explore the passion behind the dance, as well as a suggestion of its beginnings.

You imply that you know something about "THE passion behind the dance." But I am not convinced because all you give for support is cliche's and stereotypes:

During the early part of the previous century it was essentially the dance of the 'bajo mundo' - the underworld, thugs and gangsters, and its place was the brothel. It took a long time before it was embraced in wider circles

So Kainscalia, are you saying it was a dance of "the proletariat?" What does that have to do with "passion?" Who's passion? What does that have to do with tango as a dance? (these are rhetorical questions.)

Piazzola created specific pieces for dancing...

to accuse Piazzola of lack of sophistication...

Well Kainscalia, you misread what I wrote! Your comment is not relevant to what I said.

[kainscalia]

You imply that you know something about "THE passion behind the dance." But I am not convinced because all you give for support is cliche's ( It's spelled clichés) and stereotypes

I know a great deal about the passion behind the dance, just like I know a great deal about passion in music in general- being a musician by metier, and a damn good one at that.

So Kainscalia, are you saying it was a dance of "the proletariat?" What does that have to do with "passion?" Who's passion? (I believe you want to say Whose?, not Who's) What does that have to do with tango as a dance? (these are rhetorical questions.)

Second, stop getting your panties in a knot. If anyone is misreading, it is you. As someone who hasn't only listened to tango but have spent many nights in the company of and listening to professionals of the style, and to whom the Boca in Buenos Aires was no stranger, I know a great deal about tango. The history to which I allude, and if you had actually *seen* the Saura film you would know, involves its genesis among the immigrants, but it is in the Bajo Mundo that the Tango really flourished. As such, a lot of the passion portrayed in tango involves the passions of people who tended to live in the most visceral of ways. Tango isn't just a nice little social dance- when it was danced in the brothels and cabarets of the old Aires it was a dance of passion, seduction, betrayal and even obsession. Tango is, irrevocably, associated with that history- part of the romanticized image of tango involves a great deal of these passionate tales of betrayal and murder, as many of the lyrics do as well. This is true in Latin America, where singers such as Mariel Córdoba make a great emphasis over the tragic stories and the flared passions enmeshed in the music's image. This is what Saura integrated into his movie- by having both the dancers act it out (with the knife fights, the cabaret scenes, etc) as well as having the 'actors' and director reflect it in their lives to the point that the performance and the lives of the characters feed off each other. He did this with his "Carmen" as well in the context of flamenco.

It's not about being "of the proletariat." Tango has a history, and it's incredibly foolish of you accuse someone of creating some ridiculous folksy argument when he's talking about the history and the roots of a particular dance or musical form. I don't know, but maybe - just maybe - I might know what I'm talking about.

Well Kainscalia, you misread what I wrote! Your comment is not relevant to what I said.

Wrong. You said that Piazzola's tango lacks the sophistication of traditional tango. Please, explain to me in what planet does that not implicate a deficiency on Piazzola's part?

You're just a little bundle of sunshine here, aren't you? Have you met D'kian? It's as if you've been sharing smoothies.

Edited June 23, 2009 by kainscalia

[estheticidea]

Look Kainsclia, the fact that you are a good musician does not mean that you automatically understand Tango, qua dance music (let alone that you would be able to play it.) You insist in appealing to authority and keep focusing on the image that the humanities professors have created about tango.

The Saura movie completely bypasses the esthetic qualities of tango as a social dance (which are very sweet indeed). And you are not interested in that either--you are trying to belittle something you know nothing about--so let's just drop it.

[kainscalia]

Look Kainsclia, the fact that you are a good musician does not mean that you automatically understand Tango, qua dance music (let alone that you would be able to play it.) You insist in appealing to authority and keep focusing on the image that the humanities professors have created about tango.

Images that Professors of Humanities have created about Tango?

Alright, put your cards on the table. What do you know about tango? What is the contact that you have with the form? I make no appeal to authority, I make an appeal to knowing. My views are my own- I was expelled from the Rimsky-Korsakov conservatory for being confrontational about some of its canon, so don't you dare blanket me with a liberal college professor's view of tango. Que carajo sabes tu de tango? Let's play your game: What I hear from you are the opinions of a Floridian socialite who has never set foot in Buenos Aires. Have you performed in Michelangelo, Viejo Almacén? I have with Mariel Cordoba. You? Let's see how little I know about tango, indeed. When you make an audience cry with "El Día Que Me Quieras," we shall speak.

Edited June 23, 2009 by kainscalia