LandonWalsh Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I've heard these arguments over and over: "reason is merely faith" "Not everyone has the SAME reality" "You see Religion is based off of the same "Reasoning" Plato was trying to validate with Allegory of A Cave. It is the never ending search for that fabled 0.0000000000001% that can't be proven to even exist but still exists "" I am pretty good at holding my own, but I find it the hardest to fight this argument and I am not sure how to approach it. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluey Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 ... "reason is merely faith" "Not everyone has the SAME reality" "You see Religion is based off of the same "Reasoning" Plato was trying to validate with Allegory of A Cave. It is the never ending search for that fabled 0.0000000000001% that can't be proven to even exist but still exists "" ... The reason you're having trouble arguing, is because these aren't arguments at all - they're the denial of the possibility of argument. Basically they're saying "you could bring me all the proof there is, but all I will ever see is the possibility that you could be wrong, and I will choose to believe whatever I want to believe". At that point in the conversation they are talking about one thing (the supposed impossibility of certainty) and you are talking about another subject altogether (the objective falsity of religious claims). If you want to make any headway with someone who makes this argument, you'll have to begin waaaaaay back at the basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Ellison Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 If they think there is even a remote possibility that they're going to burn in Hell for "eternity", for not accepting Christ, it makes all the sense in the World to accept Christ. (Pascal's wager) So ask them why they're not Christian fundamentalists. It's because they do know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctrl y Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) If they think there is even a remote possibility that they're going to burn in Hell for "eternity", for not accepting Christ, it makes all the sense in the World to accept Christ. (Pascal's wager) So ask them why they're not Christian fundamentalists. It's because they do know better. Unfortunately, Pascal's Wager doesn't work, not even in that formulation. The skeptic just has to point out that by the same logic, there is also a remote possibility that God sends all atheists to heaven and everyone else to Hell. Edited June 20, 2009 by ctrl y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D'Ippolito Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Unfortunately, Pascal's Wager doesn't work, not even in that formulation. The skeptic just has to point out that by the same logic, there is also a remote possibility that God sends all atheists to heaven and everyone else to Hell. ... or that it is Allah you need to worry about. Or Kali. Or the Lord God Tarskyte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McVey Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Pascal's Wager wouldn't work even if there were the supernatural. A real god would know who's just throwing the dice rather than actually practicing faith, and consign the bugger to hell even if he rolled a 7. That is, like any casino owner a half decent god would be on the look-out for card counters and the like. He'd then have the boys go pick up the patron nice and discrete like, take him to a back room, rough him up, and chuck him in the dumpster out back. No cleric with any brains would seriously consider that Pascal's Wager is a satisfactory reason for 'belief.' I think the point about Pascal's Wager isn't about the individual so making it, but that the individual who is inclined to reason would thereby give sanction to the idea to an observer rather than be seen to be using reason to question the existence of gods. It's about the cleric saying "Look, even that reasoning man there says 'believe in god' ". With that the not-so-questioning man ceases asking the questioning man about this or that so much, and so crawls deeper into the hole dug for him by the cleric. JJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2046 Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Not to mention the incredibly vindictive nature of the statement: Bow down and worship God or burn in Hell for eternity. What kind of person with any shred of self-esteem would want cooperate with such an "all-loving" deity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandonWalsh Posted July 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Well so far one reply has helped me out... =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Use the search to find threads on reason and faith. I'm closing this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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