Michael Jackson dead.

[Thales]

And to think he squandered that golden opportunity to cuddle little boys instead...

My best estimate is that he liked to be around little kids because he was a kid at heart. He loved the spirit of children. I don't think it was anything more than that. Granted, I don't know this with certainty, but nothing has been proven and in absence of evidence why assume the worst?

[Thales]

All performers should be great actors, and great actors should understand the feelings and state of mind they are supposed to project, and make the audience suspend disbelief. With most pop singers, that just doesn't come across on TV and on records-where it counts most. There are exceptions (the latest was Amy Winehouse, I think, and she wasn't really pop), but very rare.

When you say "pop" singer, I'm not sure how broad a sweep you are making. But, sure, I've seen lots of plastic performers. David Hasselhoff may be the quintessential example --- not to diss him, he was good in Knight Rider.

For instance, I have no problem believing Lara Fabian at the beginning of this clip, when she mentions sincerity. But if that was Celine Dion or Mariah Carey, you know it would come across as contrived:

Yes, the Lara performance comes across as sincere, although you have to be careful with Latin love songs, because sometimes singers over emote in those.

This is one of the reasons I like Jim Croce, he delivered his songs with amazing sincerity, not to mention he wrote great lyrics and music.

[kainscalia]

Lara Fabian? Voici Barbara.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYiTu9tzEU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Llpdzx4dSU

Edited June 28, 2009 by kainscalia

[fountainhead777]

I respect him as a musician for what he contributed although his music is not to my personal taste. However I think whether the sexual assault allegations are true or not he had deep psychological problems likely from abuse. Despite such a harmful cause to his problems I think he likely engaged in reality-evasion as we was out of touch with many concepts of the real world and adulthood and this makes me not respect him as much as a person.

In short, talented performer with personal problems; that's a new one, eh?

[Mister A]

MJ really died after Dangerous; his sanity and productivity freefalled since. I'm actually amazed he physically lasted as long as he did.

[hunterrose]

The facts are that [Michael] was incredibly self destructive, he surrounded himself with children, and he died from drug addiction.

The facts are that Marilyn was incredibly self destructive, surrounded herself with people much worse than children, and died from drugs. What's your point?

It irks me when people go out of their way to criticize the dead for spurious reasons, even more so when said dead have left an undeniable positive effect on the world through their life's work. Jake, it's a shame if you can't appreciate what Michael did in life, but it sounds idiotic to go out of your way to piss on his grave.

Even though I wouldn't say Marilyn was as great a person as Michael, I would agree that she was a great person despite her faults.

[Jake_Ellison]

hunterrose: I learned not to respond to insults, because there's nothing to gain from talking to people who use them. If you think my posts sound idiotic, you don't have to read them. Watch how easy it is to thoroughly ignore someone on this forum.

[Thales]

The facts are that Marilyn was incredibly self destructive, surrounded herself with people much worse than children, and died from drugs. What's your point?

I don't know the details of Marilyn Monroe's life, except that she abused sleeping pills, but Joe DiMaggio was the guy she loved and he was not self-destructive nor childish by any means! He was a quality human being even while playing baseball and still holds the consecutive games hitting streak record.

Btw, Elvis also killed himself with drugs, although he used legal drugs, which is smart from the stand point of the law.

I'm not going to pick on Jake, but MJ had a lot to offer and I think that's worth focusing on. Even his self destructive behavior was creative in its on right!

[hunterrose]

I learned not to respond to insults, because there's nothing to gain from talking to people who use them. If you think my posts sound idiotic, you don't have to read them.

That's one option. I've learned to not let false insults slide, because there's something to lose in allowing slander to stand as "facts."

If you found my prior post so insulting, I'll apologize and rephrase that it's a shame if you can't appreciate what Michael did in life, but don't go out of your way to piss on his grave. But note that calling Michael a pedophile is more insulting and unsubstantiated than anything I've said.

I don't know the details of Marilyn Monroe's life, except that she abused sleeping pills, but Joe DiMaggio was the guy she loved and he was not self-destructive nor childish by any means!

I didn't mean to insult Marilyn - I quite like her. What I meant was that criticizing Michael for drugs and association with kids is like insulting Marilyn for drugs and association with pornographers - it's part disingenuous and part irrelevant when you consider the overwhelming value these two brought to life.

[Trebor]

Dr. Hurd gives his take on the life and death of Michael Jackson, "Human Nature?".

Edited June 29, 2009 by Trebor

[Ifat Glassman]

I think he likely engaged in reality-evasion as we was out of touch with many concepts of the real world and adulthood and this makes me not respect him as much as a person.

Just because someone is lacking or chooses not to have concepts which most adults have, says nothing about evasion.

Missing knowledge =/= Evasion.

What "concepts of the real world" are you talking about?

[Myself]

Just because someone is lacking or chooses not to have concepts which most adults have, says nothing about evasion.

Missing knowledge =/= Evasion.

What "concepts of the real world" are you talking about?

How can you choose not to "have" a concept?

As for him being "out of touch with the real world," you can the beginning of that in this 1983 interview, at around the 3:40 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg2ILcrqyQA

"I'm a fantasy fanatic. Anything that takes you off into another world. Escapism. That's what I like. I'm not so crazy about the reality of... everything. I like a lot of fantasy and that's why I started creating -- to get away, to become removed."

Edited June 29, 2009 by Myself

[Thales]

Rush Limbaugh weighs in on this subject. Rush speaks from the perspective of someone who knows how unjust modern culture and the media can be in judging people, since he has often been the victim of it.

Here he is responding to a caller:

CALLER: Well, instead of that they're doing all these big stories on Michael Jackson -- who, by the way, I am still convinced is a child molester. Then you've got Farrah Fawcett, Billy Mays.

RUSH: Wait a second now. You're no different than the media! He was acquitted. I'm going to tell you something about Michael Jackson. We haven't talked about this. But he was acquitted of that charge. That kid and the kids' mother were the worst witnesses. That was an abomination of a case brought against him. That was a vendetta case. I'm not saying he didn't have some strange peccadilloes with kids but that case didn't prove it. So if you're out there saying, "I'm still convinced he's a child molester," you're no different than the media lying about what was in the autopsy report, lying about all the drugs he was supposedly taking, lying about this and that. We don't know diddly-squat yet. The autopsy details have not been released. All we have is a bunch of media speculation. This guy's talent was incomparable! We build 'em up and we tear 'em down in this culture, and it's wrong. I'll tell you, it's the first time in my life... The media in this situation has been so bad they're making Al Sharpton look credible. They're making the Justice Brothers look like they have a reasonable reason to intervene here. That's how had been it's gotten.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Thales

[kainscalia]

Most of the time I think he's off lin Lala-Land (when he gets into his religious binges) but for saying this, bravo Rush.

Now, hold on to that spark and don't let it go next time you feel tempted to talk to your imaginary buddy in the sky. I know you can do it.

Rush Limbaugh weighs in on this subject. Rush speaks from the perspective of someone who knows how unjust modern culture and the media can be in judging people, since he has often been the victim of it.

Here he is responding to a caller:

[Thales]

Most of the time I think he's off lin Lala-Land (when he gets into his religious binges) but for saying this, bravo Rush.

Now, hold on to that spark and don't let it go next time you feel tempted to talk to your imaginary buddy in the sky. I know you can do it.

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Rush for his religious beliefs, but your assessment that this completely defines who Rush is is way off base. It’s not remotely right and thus very unjust. Most of the time his arguments are firmly attached to reality.

And, hey, the vast majority of Americans believe in the "imaginary buddy in the sky".

[kainscalia]

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Rush for his religious beliefs, but your assessment that this completely defines who Rush is is way off base. It’s not remotely right and thus very unjust. Most of the time his arguments are firmly attached to reality.

And, hey, the vast majority of Americans believe in the "imaginary buddy in the sky".

I specified when was it that I thought he was off in Lala-Land (religion). And doesn't matter, I think the vast majority of Americans are off in Lala-Land.

Just look at the election, for crying out loud.

[Thales]

I specified when was it that I thought he was off in Lala-Land (religion). And doesn't matter, I think the vast majority of Americans are off in Lala-Land.

Just look at the election, for crying out loud.

You said "most of the time". This is completely false.

[gags]

Pete King, Republican Congressman from NY just let loose with a bunch of comments on Jackson that are surely going to draw fire:

"NEW YORK - A New York congressman who is considering a Senate run posted a YouTube video calling Michael Jackson a “pervert” and questioning the exhaustive media coverage of the pop star’s death.

Rep. Peter King, a Long Island Republican, said in the video posted Sunday that society is glorifying a “low-life” while hardworking teachers, police officers, firefighters and veterans don’t get the credit they deserve.

“This guy was a pervert,” King said in the video, shot Sunday by a staff member outside an American Legion hall. “He was a child molester. He was a pedophile. And to be giving this much coverage to him, day in and day out, what does it say about us as a country?”"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31760415/ns/en...usic/?GT1=43001

[kainscalia]

Alright, from now on I am going to keep a chart of the time he spends on religion on his show versus every other topic. Mayhaps that will satisfy you.

You said "most of the time". This is completely false.

[Thales]

Alright, from now on I am going to keep a chart of the time he spends on religion on his show versus every other topic. Mayhaps that will satisfy you.

I wouldn't listen to the guy if he were pushing religion all of the time. There are many things he says that are a cut above. For example, he is a lover of the entrepreneurial spirit and openly promotes making profits. One of his funny commercial break segues is "Time now for an obscene profits time out." He makes no apologies for these things. He is very good on environmental issues, in that he sees nature as valuable to man when it's used to build things to make life better, e.g. a tree used to make a table. You’d be hard pressed to find a more passionate and effective spokesman for the value of living and pursuing your dreams. Ayn Rand would be better than him (by quite a bit), but not many others would be.

This is a spirit that is very deeply ingrained in him. Iows, he believes in it at a deep level, unlike other conservatives who are typically lukewarm on capitalism.

He is one of the few people who stands up to leftists strongly and without apology and he usually is on the right side of an issue in the process. For example, he's a big promoter of Israel.

In addition, he genuinely sees huge value in Ayn Rand's work, and has one of the very few who has mentioned rational egoism in a positive light. He has quoted quite a bit of her work, including, for instance, the idea that the individual is the smallest minority.

There are many things that he says that are not good, but he is rarely in "la la land", even so.

[Thales]

Pete King, Republican Congressman from NY just let loose with a bunch of comments on Jackson that are surely going to draw fire:

"NEW YORK - A New York congressman who is considering a Senate run posted a YouTube video calling Michael Jackson a “pervert” and questioning the exhaustive media coverage of the pop star’s death.

Rep. Peter King, a Long Island Republican, said in the video posted Sunday that society is glorifying a “low-life” while hardworking teachers, police officers, firefighters and veterans don’t get the credit they deserve.

“This guy was a pervert,” King said in the video, shot Sunday by a staff member outside an American Legion hall. “He was a child molester. He was a pedophile. And to be giving this much coverage to him, day in and day out, what does it say about us as a country?”"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31760415/ns/en...usic/?GT1=43001

Something that was never proven and for which there is a great deal of evidence against. If he were right, it'd be one thing, but it is pure stupidity, and very wrong, to assume that which has not been established as so, and then rail against someone for it.

People like that just make me want to support MJ's legacy all the more.

[Jake_Ellison]

Something that was never proven and for which there is a great deal of evidence against.

This is an excellent chance then for the Jackson family to sue Mr. King. It would give them a chance to present all that evidence, and put an end at least to the blatant accusations. I wonder if King's attorneys would be allowed to review the terms of that 15.53 million dollar settlement MJ made with the parents of one of his alleged victims, or put him on the stand. He is, by my calculations, an adult now.

Or perhaps this sworn declaration, signed by the victim, would be allowed as evidence supporting Mr. King's "baseless" claims: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/mjdec1.html

Why the sworn declaration of a thirteen year old boy, containing the phrase "During our relationship Michael Jackson had sexual contact with me many times." would be dismissed as not enough evidence for someone to form a mildly informed opinion on the issue, and rant about it on youtube, is beyond me.

I admit, I'm not exactly read up on Michael Jackson's court cases, but I can't help but overhear accounts of plenty of evidence against him. I just don't see how the fact that one prosecutor failed to prove a specific crime (that's very hard to prove, in general) means that there's absolutely no reason to think he did abuse children.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Jake_Ellison

[Maximus]

I could give a flying Krispy Kreme about Michael Jackson. ENOUGH!

[aequalsa]

I could give a flying Krispy Kreme about Michael Jackson. ENOUGH!

Mmmmm...the first time I had those I nearly put myself into a diabetic coma...they are so warm...so beautiful....

[Thales]

This is an excellent chance then for the Jackson family to sue Mr. King. It would give them a chance to present all that evidence, and put an end at least to the blatant accusations. I wonder if King's attorneys would be allowed to review the terms of that 15.53 million dollar settlement MJ made with the parents of one of his alleged victims, or put him on the stand. He is, by my calculations, an adult now.

Or perhaps this sworn declaration, signed by the victim, would be allowed as evidence supporting Mr. King's "baseless" claims: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/mjdec1.html

Why the sworn declaration of a thirteen year old boy, containing the phrase "During our relationship Michael Jackson had sexual contact with me many times." would be dismissed as not enough evidence for someone to form a mildly informed opinion on the issue, and rant about it on youtube, is beyond me.

I admit, I'm not exactly read up on Michael Jackson's court cases, but I can't help but overhear accounts of plenty of evidence against him. I just don't see how the fact that one prosecutor failed to prove a specific crime (that's very hard to prove, in general) means that there's absolutely no reason to think he did abuse children.

What you said above doesn't follow what I wrote. For example, why are you putting the word "baseless" in quotes?

Also, I didn't say there wasn't evidence against him. I said there was evidence against him being guilty. I don't know the specifics of the case. I've formed my judgment based on the opinions of others I have come to trust, specifically my Dad, Rush Limbaugh and others I know personally. I do remember my Dad questioning what was going on during the case (I took no interest in the case), and my Dad is very sharp about these things.

As to a thirteen year old's word, it all depends upon the honesty of the thirteen year old. So, I wouldn't base my position on that, even though it has some weight.

The problem with King is that he is railing against people who are celebrating MJ a "pedophile". He's outraged that people would do that. Well, I would be too, but the point is there are many of us who aren't convinced of the claim. I mean, talk about putting the cart before the horse.