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Murderer And Selfishness

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tommyedison

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Isn't a murderer selfish if he is murdering for money? I know Ayn Rand said that such people and people like Hitler are not selfish but I cannot understand why.

Hitler wasn't selfish because, ultimately, his actions were not in his own self-interest. He did wind up in a bunker with a bullet in his head.

The moral thing is what forwards your life and causes it to prosper. Hitler murdered for power, but do you think anyone rational would say he led a prosperous life?

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So, I was sitting at a traffic light the other day. (Bear with me, this does get around to the point, eventually.) Approaching the light I saw a bus trying to squeeze past stopped traffic to get into the left-turn lane. We've all been in that situation, right? The traffic in the through lane is backed up, but the left-turn lane is more or less empty. There's just enough room to get between that last car and the median, so we squeeze through, right? That's all well and good when you're driving a little sports car, or even a moderately-sized SUV. Even a big SUV if the space is big enough. When you're driving a bus (remember the bus?) the situation is a bit different. Your front end might squeeze through, but the back end may have other plans. Well, that's what happened. The front end of the bus squeezed into the left-turn lane with maybe 4 inches to spare between its front bumper and the car. Seeing this, I was pretty sure the back end of the bus wasn't going to make it. I was right. The back of the bus grated heavily against the car. As the bus proceeded forward I could see a fairly long scratch on the side. I can only guess at the damage to the car, since it was on the other side.

Here's the point. My first thought concerning the bus driver was that he must not hold much as being of value. (By the way, this would never have occurred to me 18 months ago, before I started making an effort to learn about Objectivism.) To be that careless about the values of others, even if it's just a few scratches on someone's car, says something about the meaning of our own values, not to mention any sense of pride and self-esteem we might feel. How much worse, then, is the murderer who shows not merely a careless disregard, but an active disdain for life, which is the standard of value? How can he hold his own life as being of any value? And if his own life is of no particular value, then he cannot hold any values at all, life being the standard of human values. For the murderer, acting "selfishly" becomes meaningless. A murderer, almost by definition, does not value himself, he has no self-esteem, no sense of efficacy; he is self-less. The motive of the murderer doesn't matter. There is no value to be gained in the destruction of value, i.e. the victim's life.

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Isn't a murderer selfish if he is murdering for money? I know Ayn Rand said that such people and people like Hitler are not selfish but I cannot understand why.

Selfishness, as it is used in Objectivism, means acting in one's rational self-interest, both short- and long-term. Initiating the use of force can never be in one's rational self-interest; afterall, if it were right for you to initiate force against others then it would be right for others to initiate force against you. What kind of world would such actions imply, and what meaning could we then attach to the concept "right," when most fundamental right is the right to one's life?

To be selfish does not mean to take any action that gives you pleasure, nor does it mean you can justify violating another's rights in order to take something that you want. It is in our rational self-interest to live in a world where our rights are respected, and self-interest divorced from consideration of rights is not any interest at all. In judging an action to be in one's rational self-interest we must take note of the short- and the long-term effects, and consider the moral correctness of the action.

But the moral is the practical, and the murderer who momentarily gets away with murder for money will in the long-term pay a greater price. Happiness depends upon a healthy psychology and the achievement of values, not criminal actions and forever looking over your shoulder wondering when you are going to be caught. You might enjoy reading the work of Stanton Samenow, such as Inside The Criminal Mind, to get a glimpse of the kind of psychology that makes such criminal acts possible.

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Selfishness, as it is used in Objectivism, means acting in one's rational self-interest, both short- and long-term. Initiating the use of force can never be in one's rational self-interest; afterall, if it were right for you to initiate force against others then it would be right for others to initiate force against you. What kind of world would such actions imply, and what meaning could we then attach to the concept "right," when most fundamental right is the right to one's life?

To be selfish does not mean to take any action that gives you pleasure, nor does it mean you can justify violating another's rights in order to take something that you want. It is in our rational self-interest to live in a world where our rights are respected, and self-interest divorced from consideration of rights is not any interest at all. In judging an action to be in one's rational self-interest we must take note of the short- and the long-term effects, and consider the moral correctness of the action.

But the moral is the practical, and the murderer who momentarily gets away with murder for money will in the long-term pay a greater price. Happiness depends upon a healthy psychology and the achievement of values, not criminal actions and forever looking over your shoulder wondering when you are going to be caught. You might enjoy reading the work of Stanton Samenow, such as Inside The Criminal Mind, to get a glimpse of the kind of psychology that makes such criminal acts possible.

Yes, but what about people who like to murder and torture, what about sadists cum masochists? They get pleasure from seeing others die and in pain and they get pleasure from seeing themselves in pain. So they torture others and torture themselves and it doesn't matter to them whether the world is in a chaotic state or not. I know you said that selfishness does not mean any action which gives us pleasure but I can't understand the reason. Could you please explain this to me?

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... How can he hold his own life as being of any value? And if his own life is of no particular value, then he cannot hold any values at all, life being the standard of human values. ...

I think you underestimate what I personally think of as "the problem of the sociopath." This is the kind of person who CAN value his or her own life, but is so lacking in empathy that they do not care for others. Even if shown how there is a logical contradiction in how they can value their own life but not others, they can simply say "you're right, but I don't care."

Have you seen the movie "Collateral", if you have then this is the kind of man I'm talkaing about. Vincent sure seemed to care about what happened to himself and had some pride in his work, he just had a complete lack of empathy towards others. Unfortunetly I'm not sure you could reason with a person like that.

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The only way to live and prosper is to act in accordance with ones nature. To act against ones nature is to act as a destructor. Thus the selfish man acts in accordance to his nature. Murder is not a part of human nature. If a lion were to murder another lion, there would be no problem. A human murdering another human is choosing to act against your nature, and thus choosing to act as your own destructor, and thus choosing to be selfless.

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Yes, but what about people who like to murder and torture, what about sadists cum masochists? They get pleasure from seeing others die and in pain and they get pleasure from seeing themselves in pain. So they torture others and torture themselves and it doesn't matter to them whether the world is in a chaotic state or not. I know you said that selfishness does not mean any action which gives us pleasure but I can't understand the reason. Could you please explain this to me?

Because being selfish by definiton is concern for oneself. If you are selfish you will not seek the path that is most pleasurable to you, you will seek the path that will be in the best interest of you continuing your life. Pursuing that path will give you more pleasure because it lacks and contradictions that would cause you to act against what gives you pleasure in the process of obtaining it.

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I know you said that selfishness does not mean any action which gives us pleasure but I can't understand the reason. Could you please explain this to me?

Pleasure is a consequence of achieving our values, so pleasure cannot itself be the standard by which we choose values. If pleasure were the standard then we would be saying, in essence, that the specific things we value are irrelevant and arbitrary. To be selfish is not to take pleasure in whimsical values, but rather to discover those values which, objectively, truly in reality, serve the purpose of our life. Then, and only then, can the pleasure we take in achieving our values be deemed selfish.

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I think you underestimate what I personally think of as "the problem of the sociopath."  This is the kind of person who CAN value his or her own life, but is so lacking in empathy that they do not care for others.  Even if shown how there is a logical contradiction in how they can value their own life but not others, they can simply say "you're right, but I don't care."

Why is this a problem? Treat them as any human being, even if they are not.

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Why is this a problem? Treat them as any human being, even if they are not.

I'm not sure you understand what I was trying to get at...

It's a problem because the sciopath can say "yes I understand others have rights that should logically be respected but I don't care." I point this out as a problem because such a person COULD have self-esteem and happiness (not pleaseure, but more of a psychological well being) and still be a cold-blooded killer because they have no empathy for anyone. Like Vincent in "Collateral" they could actually take pride in how well they do their job and how professional they are.

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I'm not sure you understand what I was trying to get at...

It's a problem because the sciopath can say "yes I understand others have rights that should logically be respected but I don't care."  I point this out as a problem because such a person COULD have self-esteem and happiness (not pleaseure, but more of a psychological well being) and still be a cold-blooded killer because they have no empathy for anyone.  Like Vincent in "Collateral" they could actually take pride in how well they do their job and how professional they are.

So treat a cold-blooded killer for what he is. Lock him up or execute him. Problem solved.

I still don't see what the problem is. To whom is being a sociopath a problem? They still have the capacity for free will. Once they actually commit a crime, then they should be treated accordingly.

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I'm not sure you understand what I was trying to get at...

It's a problem because the sciopath can say "yes I understand others have rights that should logically be respected but I don't care."  I point this out as a problem because such a person COULD have self-esteem and happiness (not pleaseure, but more of a psychological well being) and still be a cold-blooded killer because they have no empathy for anyone.  Like Vincent in "Collateral" they could actually take pride in how well they do their job and how professional they are.

Fact is that even if all this is somehow serving his self-interest, a man who violates rights has to be destroyed. Otherwise, the alternative is a cannibal society which will live for some time and then destroy itself. And if that sociopath violates others rights, it gives others the right to violate his rights. Otherwise injustice would prevail.

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Pleasure is a consequence of achieving our values, so pleasure cannot itself be the standard by which we choose values. If pleasure were the standard then we would be saying, in essence, that the specific things we value are irrelevant and arbitrary. To be selfish is not to take pleasure in whimsical values, but rather to discover those values which, objectively, truly in reality, serve the purpose of our life. Then, and only then, can the pleasure we take in achieving our values be deemed selfish.

Does this mean that listening to music for pleasure, without any reason for pleasure, pleasure for itself, is irrational?

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Does this mean that listening to music for pleasure, without any reason for pleasure, pleasure for itself, is irrational?

If I understand what you are saying, then yes. By severing pleasure from the value (ie. what value you place on the music to give you the pleasure), you have created pleasure based upon whim. Pleasure based upon whim thus is the pleasure that "sucks dry and moves on", ie "This is my favorite song!" and two weeks later, "No-This is my favorite song!", and so on. Because there is no base value, the quest will be a never-fulfilling and never-ending one.

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If I understand what you are saying, then yes.  By severing pleasure from the value (ie. what value you place on the music to give you the pleasure), you have created pleasure based upon whim.  Pleasure based upon whim thus is the pleasure that "sucks dry and moves on", ie "This is my favorite song!" and two weeks later, "No-This is my favorite song!", and so on.  Because there is no base value, the quest will be a never-fulfilling and never-ending one.

I don't understand any of the above. Do you mean that I should judge music by how much money I paid for it?

I would think that the reverse would make more sense, that how much I am willing to pay for the music depends on my judgement of the music.

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I don't understand any of the above. Do you mean that I should judge music by how much money I paid for it?

Nope. I never once mentioned money.

Pleasure accompanies the activity of you striving to reach your values. So, if you place value in a certain song, or a certain composer, because of the value that this music fulfills-then by listening to it, you reach your values and thus gain some pleasure.

Pleasure is always based upon this activity however-it is not seperate. People try and seperate pleasure from activity for many reasons, and place pleasure as the goal that they are trying to reach, instead of the value. Because this type of pleasure is not rooted in anything, you will only get short bursts of pseudo-pleasure from what value system you have left decaying inside of you, but that you have either shunned or haven't identified.

Because you have not identified it, or shunned it, the pleasure doesn't last forever. Thus you don't know "what it was..I just liked it". Then you tire of it because you can't identify it, and move on. This is what I was talking about-and something that you see a lot today. "Oh I like this! I don't know why...I just do....it makes me feel good."

I hope that makes more sense.

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Nope.  I never once mentioned money.

Pleasure accompanies the activity of you striving to reach your values.  So, if you place value in a certain song, or a certain composer, because of the value that this music fulfills-then by listening to it, you reach your values and thus gain some pleasure. 

Pleasure is always based upon this activity however-it is not seperate.  People try and seperate pleasure from activity for many reasons, and place pleasure as the goal that they are trying to reach, instead of the value.  Because this type of pleasure is not rooted in anything, you will only get short bursts of pseudo-pleasure from what value system you have left decaying inside of you, but that you have either shunned or haven't identified.

Because you have not identified it, or shunned it, the pleasure doesn't last forever.  Thus you don't know "what it was..I just liked it".  Then you tire of it because you can't identify it, and move on.  This is what I was talking about-and something that you see a lot today.  "Oh I like this! I don't know why...I just do....it makes me feel good."

I hope that makes more sense.

To me, all this is as clear as mud. I have no idea what you could possibly mean by "place value" in a certain song or a certain composer, other than either money paid for it or enjoyment listening.

For several years I regularly borrowed music CDs from the library. I selected CDs that I thought were likely to have music that I like. At home I selected favorite tracks and made MP3 or OGG files out of them. Every now and then I had enough to fill a CD. I have a whole bunch of such CDs accumulated over a period of years.

I judge music simply by whether I like it. Doesn't matter whether it is popular or unpopular. Doesn't matter WHY I like it or don't like it. Doesn't matter whether someone else likes it or doesn't like it. (except when I burn a CD for my brother) Doesn't matter whether Ayn Rand like it or not. Obviously that's hedonism.

What's wrong with hedonism as applied to music?

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My first thought concerning the bus driver was that he must not hold much as being of value. (By the way, this would never have occurred to me 18 months ago, before I started making an effort to learn about Objectivism.) To be that careless about the values of others, even if it's just a few scratches on someone's car, says something about the meaning of our own values, not to mention any sense of pride and self-esteem we might feel.

Or it could have just been an accident by an unskillful driver B) I've been in a few, not because I was driving recklessly, not caring about the values of others, but just making a bad decision. If you drive off after hitting someone's car...

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To me, all this is as clear as mud.  I have no idea what you could possibly mean by "place value" in a certain song or a certain composer, other than either money paid for it or enjoyment listening.

that's hedonism.

This is really going off on a tangent, so maybe we should start a new thread if you would like to continue it further. Anyway, to place value means the act denoting value to a certain thing. It is basically the statement, "I value this...".

I judge music simply by whether I like it. Doesn't matter whether it is popular or unpopular. Doesn't matter WHY I like it or don't like it. Doesn't matter whether someone else likes it or doesn't like it. (except when I burn a CD for my brother) Doesn't matter whether Ayn Rand like it or not. Obviously that's hedonism.

What's wrong with hedonism as applied to music?

Sounds more like you haven't identified your values to me. And the question would be, "What is wrong with hedonism?"-period.

Read my previous post to identify what is wrong with hedonism-it is a futile attempt at happiness that ends up in the gutter.

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For several years I regularly borrowed music CDs from the library.  I selected CDs that I thought were likely to have music that I like.  At home I selected favorite tracks and made MP3 or OGG files out of them.  Every now and then I had enough to fill a CD.  I have a whole bunch of such CDs accumulated over a period of years.

Then there's the whole issue of what's wrong with stealing your music...

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