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Oklahoma legislature: Economic crisis = Gays.

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That's exactly what he meant, and it's consistent with other things he said, example: "If anyone asks you two walk one mile, walk two."

During that timeframe, Jerusalem was under Roman occupation. Roman Soldiers had the right to ask a civilian to carry their equipment for 1 mile, but due to abuses, they could be punished for asking a citizen for more than that. You can imagine Jesus's reason for telling all his followers to walk the extra mile.

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"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

-Matthew 5: 38

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Who is he quoting there? Jesus is never recorded to have said any of what he said he said. It specifically says "do not resist an evil person."

Yes you can "imagine" whatever reason you want to imagine, but your imagination doesn't change the meaning of the sermon.

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John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

(context on this verse: The people at the temple were buying and selling livestock to be sacrificed)

"Jesus entered the Temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 'It is written,' he said to them, 'My house will be called a house of prayer but you are making it a den of robbers.'" (Matthew 21:12-13)

Acts of the Apostles 24:10 When the governor motioned for him to speak, Paul replied: "I know that for a number of years you have been a judge over this nation; so I gladly make my defense. 11You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. 13And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. 14However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

These aren't the "Lie down and take it" people that you guys seem to think they are.

Wow you guys are rapidfire. Unfortunately I'm out of time, but I'll pick this up later.

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These aren't the "Lie down and take it" people that you guys seem to think they are.

Yeah that's why he totally didn't let his own people put him up on a cross and torture him to death in order to be sacrificed to the sinners, in addition to preaching an ethic system of self-denial and self-sacrifice his whole life.

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John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Dan, do you really not know what happened RIGHT AFTER THIS?

John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

After which he healed the servant's ear.

So yes, Jesus was encouraging the "Lie down and take it" attitude.

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Riiiiight.

The ancient Jews walked around with one hand tied behind their back only using it to wipe their arses. Rationalization? Pure BS I'd say.

Hey, in some places they still cut off the right hands of convicted thieves so they eat and wipe with one hand.

Either way, I just want "representatives" to stand up for my individual rights and the individual rights of others. Too much fluff in government, and we're paying for it.

Even marriage. Doesn't need to be a government issue. Get a contract.

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Your missing the whole point of why what he did was necessary, and this thread's about to explode because everything I'm about to say is going to need to be checked, doublechecked, signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat and recycled as firelighters. (I love Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy).

The culture of the time was grounded in blood sacrifice. Animals were slaughtered so that transgressions against God might be forgiven (this is where the term 'scapegoat' comes from. Back then it was literal). By spilling his own blood, God spoke in the language of the time. It was no longer necessary to shed blood for the forgiveness of sins because the bloodprice had already been paid.

Dan, do you really not know what happened RIGHT AFTER THIS?

John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

After which he healed the servant's ear.

So yes, Jesus was encouraging the "Lie down and take it" attitude.

Oh really? Jesus wasn't berrating Peter for cutting off the guy's ear in his defense. Jesus was telling Peter to calm down because it was all part of the script.

As for healing the servant, I'm fairly sure Malchus became a good Christian for the experience.

Edited by NotCrazyDan
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So how are we missing the point? We get the point exactly. And it is evil.

You live under a theist dictatorship, so go follow your imaginary god's rules. The second one of you tries to make me follow your god's rules by force, somebody will receive a healthy dose of cerebral ventilation. Rationalize that.

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Here's one you can't rationalize, Dan: your belief in the irrational (a Jesus who is a super human healer, or an all powerful God) is contrary to Objectivism. So, are you saying Objectivism is wrong in that men should be rational, but right about other things you agree with, and are trying to mold the Bible into agreement with?

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I'm not rationalizing anything. I haven't stated anything on this forum that isn't the truth as I've seen it since I first became interested in religion (which was well before I started actually believing in Christianity). I'm not molding anything to anything.

What I do see is a bunch of bobbleheads who always seem to have the same opinion on everything, which I find remarkable. What I find even more remarkable is your habit of shouting down and shutting up anyone who doesn't agree with you. I've seen it on this forum in numerous different places, not just religion. You are dogmatic, and not interested in discussions unless they are perfectly in line with your predisposed and often arbitrary ideas. Take the recent thread pertaining to abortion if you need an example.

But YOU are the enlightened free thinkers, and I am the irrational rationalizing catholic guy, though I'm the one arguing from context and fact that any religion major can verify, and you are simply arguing from contempt.

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Jake is quite abrasive but it still remains that God cannot coexist with reality as a supernatural being is a contradiction of reality. On top of that Catholicism has a history of corruption and ignorance that plunged us into the Dark Ages. There are some small amounts of good values, such as hard work and personal investment and happiness, occasionally associated with religion but they are often not actually associated with it by teaching.

I want to know what you get out of religion that cannot be found anywhere else.

Also our beliefs are similar because they follow a guided path of personal induction, thought and observation fo reality to gain knowledge. With similar values and a similar course many come to a similar conclusion. We do not like mysticism because it is frankly bullshit and we do not want sacrifice because it helps no one but those who seek power or destruction of others.

On a more general note you guys are arguing scripture in the Bible of all books. Most older books have some plot holes or discrepancies but a religious text like the bible is so full of contradictions and myths that these disputes just seem inane because eventually whoever wins just knows his bs and contradictions best.

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I'll jump in on the back side of this post.

Dan, I think it's important to recognize that Rand's philosophy is a closed philosophy. So, in an forum on Objectivism, yeah, the argument really centers around what has has been rationally stated within the philosophy.

Yeah, there are times when I butt heads against some on the board here, but that can because of my notions that don't work within the philosophy. Take the butting as a learning experience. I do turn to this page http://wiki.objectivismonline.net/wiki/Main_Page as a crutch as I learn more.

I got here wanting something more grounded in rationality vs "because". I identified myself as a small government, individual freedom supporting conservative politically, but I found that there seemed to be too much "because" and "because of God" within the Republican idea that wasn't based in something real that I could confidently latch onto and stand up for along with standing up for myself and those of value around me.

Additionally, I know that I carry some preconceived notions about other ideologies, like the difference between liberalism and liberal, which has sometimes put me in positions of not fully understanding the good and bad of the other side.

Edited by SD26
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You are dogmatic, and not interested in discussions unless they are perfectly in line with your predisposed and often arbitrary ideas.

Objectivism is squarely opposed to religion. That is fact (easily demonstrable) by statements made by the creator of the closed philosophy of Objectivism, Ayn Rand), not opinion, so stating it is not dogmatic.

The reason why we're not interested in discussions of anything opposed to Objectivism as if it could be true is featured on the front page: this site is dedicated to discussing Objectivism.

But YOU are the enlightened free thinkers, and I am the irrational rationalizing catholic guy, though I'm the one arguing from context and fact that any religion major can verify, and you are simply arguing from contempt.

Religion majors don't study facts, they study fiction, so what they can verify is likely the product of someone's imagination. I do have contempt for religion, and I do think that's pretty much the definition of being enlightened, and a free thinker (emphasis on the thinker part, being open to the irrational-which is what you might mean by the "free" part- is the opposite of thinking).

But I don't have any contempt for you, and I don't think my words could be seen as contemptuous. I think what you perceive as hostility is simply a rejection of your ideas. If you wish to discuss Objectivism, you should note first that it is opposed to religion.

Jake is quite abrasive but it still remains that God cannot coexist with reality as a supernatural being is a contradiction of reality.

That's exactly what I said. Jesus Christ! :)

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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So you telepathically swear eternal devotion to a magical dead Jewish zombie to rule over you in order to keep him from killing you and torturing you in Hell and we're the "dogmatic" "bobbleheads" running around "with the same opinon" and not interested in discussion? Make less sense please!

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That's not ad hominem, that's clarification for why everyone "seemed to have the same opinion" on not wanting to believe in magical talking snakes and wanting to bow down to a malevolent cosmic dictator, which evidently you found remarkable.

Now as long as we're going to play the go read this sarcastic link game, you should click on this one lest you open yourself up to being called a hypocrite.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=31;

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Weak response, just as your implied threat of violence earlier in the thread was weak. Using distractions, intimidations and disrespect to shut somebody up because you don't like the implications of what he's saying is weakness.

I got involved with this forum because I like to surround myself with people who think differently than I do in order to learn, but I think I've learned all that I'm going to here.

Best of luck to all of you in all your future personal endeavors.

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Weak response, just as your implied threat of violence earlier in the thread was weak. Using distractions, intimidations and disrespect to shut somebody up because you don't like the implications of what he's saying is weakness.

I got involved with this forum because I like to surround myself with people who think differently than I do in order to learn, but I think I've learned all that I'm going to here.

Best of luck to all of you in all your future personal endeavors.

The fact that you even interpreted it as a "threat of violence to shut you up" is actually pretty revealing / funny.

In any event, aren't there ignore buttons if you don't like someone's post? Oh well. Sayonara, I guess.

Edited by 2046
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