Is unthinkingly enjoying music hedonistic?

[Jerry Story]

I judge music by whether I like it. That's hedonism and therefore is irrational.

What is the rational way to judge music?

[y_feldblum]

Do you like music on whim, or have you tried to understand why you like the music that you do?

Also, what do you mean by "judg[ing] music" - ie, by what standard, according to what scale?

[JRoberts]

You could begin by identifying why you like the music-and what you are looking for in music.

[Jerry Story]

Do you like music on whim, or have you tried to understand why you like the music that you do?

Also, what do you mean by "judg[ing] music" - ie, by what standard, according to what scale?

I like (or dislike) music on whim. I judge music by whether I like it or dislike it. If I like it, it's good; if I dislike it, it's bad. I don't have clue how else to judge music.

[jfortun]

Music is an art form that makes a direct emotional connection, so to find out why you like or dislike a piece of music you are going to have to do a bit of introspecting about your emotions rather than starting with premises.

Work from your emotions on out. There are reasons and premises behind your likes and dislikes; you just might have to dig for them if you've never explorered that area before.

Start with: how does music you like make you feel?

[Jerry Story]

Music is an art form that makes a direct emotional connection, so to find out why you like or dislike a piece of music you are going to have to do a bit of introspecting about your emotions rather than starting with premises.

Work from your emotions on out.  There are reasons and premises behind your likes and dislikes; you just might have to dig for them if you've never explorered that area before.

Start with: how does music you like make you feel?

I feel the same way with or without music, good music or bad music: with my hands.

If you mean emotions, I don't have a clue other than it's good or bad or sometimes nothing.

Does it matter? I still don't know what's wrong with hedonism as applied to music.

[jfortun]

I feel the same way with or without music, good music or bad music:  with my hands.

If you mean emotions, I don't have a clue other than it's good or bad or sometimes nothing.

Does it matter?  I still don't know what's wrong with hedonism as applied to music.

Your assertion is that when you are listening to music you like you cannot discern what emotions it conjures?

If you can't discern your own emotions how do you even get to far as labeling your practices as hedonism?

[MisterSwig]

What is the rational way to judge music?

Start by learning something about music. You don't need to become a musician, but it would help enormously if you simply acquired a basic knowledge of instruments, scales, chords, melodies, etc. In order to judge music objectively you need to know something about it.

[jfortun]

Start by learning something about music. You don't need to become a musician, but it would help enormously if you simply acquired a basic knowledge of instruments, scales, chords, melodies, etc. In order to judge music objectively you need to know something about it.

I honestly don't think even this is required. All I need to know is why I like what I like and be able to answer "is it healthy"?

If I relish in music about violence and death, what does it say about my values?

I agree that knowing more about music can expand one's appreciation, but one can be rational about music just by exploring your own reaction to it.

[Jerry Story]

Your assertion is that when you are listening to music you like you cannot discern what emotions it conjures?

If you can't discern your own emotions how do you even get to far as labeling your practices as hedonism?

I am simple minded. I put all music in one or the other of two categories. Either it is worth ripping or it is not. After I have it ripped and compressed, at a later time a few works are better than others so I might copy them to a "favorites" directory. All I know is good, bad, indifferent, and various degrees of good and bad.

[jfortun]

I am simple minded.  I put all music in one or the other of two categories.  Either it is worth ripping or it is not.  After I have it ripped and compressed, at a later time a few works are better than others so I might copy them to a "favorites" directory.  All I know is good, bad, indifferent, and various degrees of good and bad.

You're just being obstinate.

There are reasons you react a certain way whether you admit to those reasons or not. If you can't (or won't) introspect a little and figure out if you like a piece of music because it excites you, or moves you or makes you want to dance, etc. etc. then there is really no point in continuing the discussion.

[MisterSwig]

If I relish in music about violence and death, what does it say about my values?

I see, you're not really concerned about music at all. You are concerned about listening to certain lyrics.

Do you have an unhealthy addiction to gangsta rap? Cannibal Corpse?

[GoodOrigamiMan]

It's possible that some confusion is being created by the interpretation of hedonism. The philosophical definition of hedonism is:

The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.

The first problem is that nothing is intrinsically good. But if we ignore that we can ask: Is there any value to things that are pleasant or have pleasant consequences? Yes, providing that your emotions are rational or in other words providing that your emotions correlate with your mind.

Ayn Rand, Romantic Manifesto p. 50

The fundamental difference between music and the other arts lies in the fact that music is experienced as if it reversed man's normal psycho-epistemological process... ...The pattern of the process involved in music is: from perception-to emotion-to appraisal-to conceptual understanding.

  Music is experience as if it had the power to reach man's emotions directly.

If you like music then it is good music (for you). If you're not sure why you like certain music you can backtrack and find out. You could probably learn a little about yourself by using this process.

One problem I'm having though is as follows: I like the presentation of a lot of music just not the content, or I like the sound just not what is being said. In such cases I am experiencing emotions from both psycho-epistemological processes at once and there are times when my emotions towards a song are at odds with each other. My problem though is this creates some sort of paradox.

Anyways, I always have will always have Classical Music and Japanese Pop to listen to (I don't understand Japanese well enough disagree with what they say !).

[jfortun]

I see, you're not really concerned about music at all. You are concerned about listening to certain lyrics.

Do you have an unhealthy addiction to gangsta rap? Cannibal Corpse?

I think lyrics can be included when one speaks of music. It is part of the experience. And where you find aggressive lyrics you also probably find aggressive music.

I do not happen to be a fan of gangsta-rap and I don't feel one way or the other about Cannibal Corpse. Thanks for asking.

[MisterSwig]

I think lyrics can be included when one speaks of music. It is part of the experience.

If those "aggressive lyrics" were in a foreign language, then I don't think you would be having the problem you are having. It doesn't sound like you are interested in the singing so much. You seem more concerned about the meaning of the lyrics.

[GoodOrigamiMan]

I think lyrics can be included when one speaks of music.

I agree. How could lyrics not be considered part of the music?

It's interesting becuase it means that Rand's definition of the nature of music was incomplete (and false to the extend that it was presented as fundamentaly complete). In music with lyrics, emotions are reached directly from perception and indirectly from perception to conceptual understanding.

In terms of judging music, what do you do if you really like a song for the direct emotional response it gives - but your conceptual understanding of the lyrics goes . In this context I wouldn't want to get caught by anyone sanctioning such lyrics by trying to enjoy the song and ignoring them. If a rap song says it's ok to kill cops and you think that's immoral then don't listen to the music for the back beat; wouldn't it be a sacrifice of your values to do so?

[GoodOrigamiMan]

If those "aggressive lyrics" were in a foreign language, then I don't think you would be having the problem you are having. It doesn't sound like you are interested in the singing so much. You seem more concerned about the meaning of the lyrics.

That goes without saying because if you didn't understand them you would have no conceptual understanding of them and only a direct emotional response would be possible. But if you agree that lyrics are part of the music, and the lyrics are in a language you understand, then there is a conceptual understanding that takes place and an additional emotional response.

The reason why I think lyrics are concerning is because of the horrible philosophy in the conceptual understanding of them. Not many music artists get away with banging on keys of a piano and calling it music, but most of them get away with immense irrationality with their lyrics. What would their philosophy sound like if it was played for what it is? Discord, confused, contradictory?

[MisterSwig]

But if you agree that lyrics are part of the music, and the lyrics are in a language you understand, then there is a conceptual understanding that takes place and a subsequent emotional response.

I distinguish between the singing and the meaning of lyrics. I may enjoy how a lyric is sung, yet hate its message. Or conversely, I may simply love a lyric's meaning, yet consider the vocals terrible. A good lyric is when I am happy with both the singing and the meaning together.

By the way, I don't consider the meaning of a lyric part of the "music." You could make an argument that it is part of a song. But music, no. Music deals with sounds, not the meaning of lyrics.

[stephen_speicher]

I agree.  How could lyrics not be considered part of the music?

Simple. By looking at the issue in terms of fundamentals. We call it "lyrics" because it is meaningful words, and we call it "music" because it is "sounds produced by periodic vibrations of a sonorous body." Lyrics without music is what we call poetry, but music without lyrics remains music. That is not to say that we cannot appreciate and respond to the lyrics that accompany music; we can and we do, but it is secondary to our experience of music qua music. If, on the other hand, you respond mainly to some beautiful lyrics, rather than the music, than what you are really aprreciating is the poetry of the words, which itself is not music.

It's interesting becuase it means that Rand's definition of the nature of music was incomplete

Miss Rand's definition (characterization) of music was clear and precise in identifying the essential and fundamental nature of music. It is you who is attempting to append an inessential quality where it does not belong.

[jfortun]

If those "aggressive lyrics" were in a foreign language, then I don't think you would be having the problem you are having. It doesn't sound like you are interested in the singing so much. You seem more concerned about the meaning of the lyrics.

I am confused as to which problem it is you think I am having. I was merely giving an example of what a persons taste in music might say about them. It was an example, not an accusation or a condemnation of any particular kind of music.

[jfortun]

When music contains lyrics, it is at its best when all elements, the words, music, and singing act as an integrated whole.

One can evaluate a song by any number of individual factors, but in the end you experience the whole. You may be able to point out which portions you liked and which you did not, but after all analysis you cannot discard the fact that you have an evaluation of a complete song.

This is not to say that the individual elements which make up a song effect you the same way; obviously words are processed in a different way than music; but in a song the music colors the words in a way absent from poetry and the words color the music in a way absent from purely instrumental work and that is what comprises the sum of the experience.

I would not say that lyrics are essential to music, but I would say that in music which contains lyrics they become an essential element of one's evalutation.

[jfortun]

If it helps to clarify,when I used the word "music" in my previous posts what I meant was a complete creation representing music and lyrics.

[stephen_speicher]

When music contains lyrics, it is at its best when all elements, the words, music, and singing act as an integrated whole.

One can evaluate a song by any number of individual factors, but in the end you experience the whole.  You may be able to point out which portions you liked and which you did not, but after all analysis you cannot discard the fact that you have an evaluation of a complete song.

You are missing the main point. When I eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich I "experience the whole," yet peanut butter remains peanut butter, jelly remains jelly, and bread remains bread. Likewise, in a well-integrated song, I "experience the whole," but the music remains music and the lyrics remain lyrics. A song is a combination of music and lyrics, and we experience it as such, but that does not change the nature of music or the nature of the poetic lyrics.

[jfortun]

A song is a combination of music and lyrics, and we experience it as such, but that does not change the nature of music or the nature of the poetic lyrics.

Music can add an emotional element to lyrics while lyrics can and a conceptual element to the music. I hate to use the cliche, but the total ends up being more than a sum of its parts.

In other words, knowing what peanut butter, jelly and bread taste like only hints at what a pb&j sandwich will taste like. The Sandwich Stands Alone as its own unique experience.

The same can be said for the difference between the written word and the spoken word. I can write "This is an important topic" but you don't know what I really mean unless you see and hear me say it with an edge in my voice and a roll of my eyes. Delivery can change meaning.

The music obviously does not change the lyrics just as the lyrics do not change the music, but they do effect one another in our experience of them.

[gnargtharst]

Incidental point here: have any Objectivists offered a better definition of music than "periodic vibrations in a sonorous body"? I'm prepared to concede that I'm missing some context here, but that seems to miss the mark.