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People who are sexually promiscuous make me mad

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I dont believe sex is wrong, immoral, bad, sinful or whatever the labels are that can be placed on it to be viewed in a negative way. I believe sex is a great expression of ones values that they see in their partner and share love making together. But where i live, the country i was raised in (England) and im sure its the same in the U.S, sex for sex's sake is typical and thought of as "nothing wrong with it". For me, to have multiple sexual partners going from one to the other says low self esteem. Im watching a show right now on TV called big brother, basically then take a dozen people from the public and lock them in a house for 14 weeks and see how they cope. One of the discussions was how many partners each had sexually in total, "somewhere under 50" was the majority of answers by the housemates and saying how 5 or 6 a year isnt a bad thing. To me this is disgusting and i could never accept being in a relationship with someone who gives away the most intimate way to express themselves loosely

Am i wrong here or are my views shared with other objectivists such as yourselves?

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But where i live, the country i was raised in (England) and im sure its the same in the U.S, sex for sex's sake is typical and thought of as "nothing wrong with it".

...

To me this is disgusting and i could never accept being in a relationship with someone who gives away the most intimate way to express themselves loosely

WRT the first part, I think that's a reasonable assessment of "average opinion". I agree with your second point. Now can you defend the title of your thread?
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I never said it was right to be mad, i dont want to be an angry person - but the fact is right now it does make me mad. Reason being is because people try to justify their animalistic behaviour and see ME as the one with the issue. I find it to be negative and so the negativity gets me in the frame of mind where i get mad about it because these people who act on whims seem to be "happy" doing so, I get frustrated thinking how people like that can be happy when i try so hard to be the opposite and struggle in the other direction to go against the grain of "normal" social behaviour

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I get frustrated thinking how people like that can be happy when i try so hard to be the opposite and struggle in the other direction to go against the grain of "normal" social behaviour

Who said they were happy?

Why is it such a struggle to not be promiscuous? Why does it even enter your mind about "going against the grain" of social trends when all you're doing is pursuing your own values?

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Who said they were happy?

Why is it such a struggle to not be promiscuous? Why does it even enter your mind about "going against the grain" of social trends when all you're doing is pursuing your own values?

They seem happy to be doing it as they keep having sexual partners without a meaningful relationship.

For me it was hard to meet someone who shared my belief on this. And it enters my mind about going against the grain and social trends because i've had a lot of social conditioning to be that way but i am trying and will continue to try to be as well informed and a practitioner of objectivism as you guys.

Edited by Matt
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Anger over these issues, in one's personal life as opposed to in an Internet debate, comes from Objectivists trying to "preach". It's OK to be that way on this forum, the whole purpose of it is to share our views and knowledge.

But in a group of young people out to have fun and throw around jokes, it's not your job to tell them not to be promiscuous. You should lead by example, and stay confident in your views, when someone asks you about them, but keep it about yourself:

--I don't want to have many partners, I value sex as an expression of my greatest value, I think principles and morality are important, I cannot be happy without having a partner who is loyal and honest.

--Don't !! tell people: You should not have sex with many people, You cheapen sex and You are immoral. Your friends will ask you why you do things differently, and you'll have a chance to explain, if they care. From your success in getting girls I'm assuming you are a fun and social guy, don't screw it up by pissing off your friends with moralizing. They don't care, and it's not your job to go out of your way to change that, especially in your context: at this stage in your life, in the UK.

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While i agree with what you say about trying to moralize people (its a waste of time), on the other hand i dont associate with people like that now anyway. I feel that one's friends are a reflection of himself and so "pissing someone off" is the least of my concern if they find i do not go out with them anymore because i wont get drunk and make an idiot of myself. These people go out and have "fun" yet i'm not having fun watching them try to fake an attempt at being happy or joyful.

I want to reiterate that i dont try and endoctrine my beliefs on anyone and i dont preach. I just have firm beliefs and dont shy away from expressing them. If other people dont like it's not my problem

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Yes, lots of easy sex that doesn't hurt anybody, and is so cool.

Been there, done that, ... and wish to this day I hadn't.

A couple of my quick thoughts on a very deep and wide subject:

The previous posters were right in questioning your 'madness' at promiscuous people; rather aim for a quiet confidence and certainty in your morally independent self discipline about sex.

Mostly these people have very low self-esteem, which requires constant validation from a string of sexual conquests - they are not as happy as you think.

There is nothing like the power of sexual intimacy to set one on a slippery slope that leads to full-blown hedonism - about as anti-Objectivist as one can go.

The resulting entanglements from what seems a 'harmless' affair, can haunt you for years later.

Sex (and love) are like a currency - the more partners one has, the more one devalues that currency.

To stand alone against the collectivist customs of your time, is one of the hardest things a young man or woman can do - but it is rewarding, now, and in the long haul.

"We are living in a time of terrible emotional shallowness. There is a lack of depth and passion in young people." Dr. Nathaniel Branden. His books on self-esteem and romantic love, are a must for any young(ish) Objectivists. I believe.

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Thank you whYNOT, that is the point that i believe in but had trouble trying to get across.

Also, a good quote by Nathaniel Branden. I enjoyed his writing in the Virtue of Selfishness... is it not ironic though how he was later labelled a liar, cheater and a con -man by Ayn Rand

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She was hurt. Ayn Rand wasn't made of steel, and I am even more admiring of her for this simple fact.

I have only recently caught up on all the publicised facts of this complex situation between the two of them, and it makes me certain that firstly, if Rand had lived longer she would have adjusted her thinking on psychology in agreement with Branden. Secondly that Branden has always behaved with integrity, and is a fine Objectivist - which he calls himself to this day.

His new book "The Legacy of Ayn Rand" should be a great read.

Oh, and it's my pleasure. :)

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The way I've seen it since several years after my beginning with Objectivism is that if you do not understand the Objectivist view of sex fully, then you are in danger of being a whim worshipper in sex. That doesn't necessarily mean promiscuous, but it certainly means sleeping with the wrong person. If in adolesence you wanted sex very much with beautiful people as the standard, then it will take many years to automatize withholding sex for the right person. If you are achieving in life, and you are proud in the realm of your creative achievements then you will automatically want sex with someone. For me, a thirty year old virgin, or a forty year old virgin, is possibly a god. But then again, only if he/she has not been depriving him or herself of valid opportunities.

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Sex (and love) are like a currency - the more partners one has, the more one devalues that currency.

How so?

Do you mean that because I have loved and had sex with others in the past, all my future relationships will be lesser than they could have been? That's certainly not how I value things.

Here's what Ayn Rand has to say about it:

"Like any other value, love is not a static quantity to be divided, but an unlimited response to be earned. The love for one friend is not a threat to the love for another, and neither is the love for the various members of one’s family, assuming they have earned it. "

"Love is the expression of one’s values, the greatest reward you can earn for the moral qualities you have achieved in your character and person, the emotional price paid by one man for the joy he receives from the virtues of another. "

Notice the last part, "the greatest reward you can earn for the moral qualities you have achieved in your character and person...", i'd say that love itself is not the currency. The currency is virtue, and love is the response to that. It's not a limited respons either, it's not like if you are surrounded by a lot of virtuous people that suddenly you would not have the capacity to love all of them, or that somehow the love gets watered down.

However, one thing that would diminish the meaning of love is if there's a lack of virtue - which of course is a problem with promiscuous people.

She was hurt. Ayn Rand wasn't made of steel, and I am even more admiring of her for this simple fact.

I have only recently caught up on all the publicised facts of this complex situation between the two of them, and it makes me certain that firstly, if Rand had lived longer she would have adjusted her thinking on psychology in agreement with Branden. Secondly that Branden has always behaved with integrity, and is a fine Objectivist - which he calls himself to this day.

His new book "The Legacy of Ayn Rand" should be a great read.

Do you know what her emotional state was like, and how do you know it? Also, are you implying that she let emotions cloud her judgement?

Another thing that really rubs me the wrong way are statements like "if Ayn Rand had lived... she would have...". That's pure speculation that makes it sound like she would have taken your side "if only...". A more honest and straightforward way to put it is; "I think she made a mistake here. Period.".

Personally I havent read that much about the break with the Brandens. One thing I do know however is that Nathaniel Brandens own homepage is filled with dishonesty, misreprestations and straw-man arguments of Objectivism. That makes me sincerly doubt the mans integrity and what a fine Objectivist he is.

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It's strange to me how people can achieve orgasms having sex without a connection. Ayn says that the mind cannot be detached from the physical act and so how can people enjoy degrading themselves

Are you quoting something?

You can have an orgasm without a meaningful connection too, not just "people", I assure you. If an attractive, strange woman tied you down, she could get you to orgasm. The question is, is it the right thing to do. Ayn says it is not. But that doesn't mean you should sit around looking at how other people connect with each other, and deem it immoral if the connection or lack of a connection, you perceive, doesn't meet your personal standards. Having sex with more than one person in a month or two doesn't automatically make someone promiscuous, and in pursuit of sex without values.

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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Alfa, what is your opinion on the topic?

My opinion is that promiscuity is an attitude towards sex with very loose standards. I say attitude here because I think the concrete manifestation of such loose standards is difficult to judge. I can't say if 5 or 50 different partners in a year is promiscuous or not, an i'd be carefull before judging people in such a private matter.

As far as promiscuity goes though, I don't understand it. I'm unable to relate to that kind of behavior. However, sometimes I feel a bit sad when I see romance so poorly treated and when sex is degraded to nothing but the grinding of flesh. But, the only way to treat it is to focus on the achievment of my own values.

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As a sidebar to this topic, and after consideration, I want to concur that Alfa was correct to take me to task on my conjecture about Ayn Rand's state of mind, or her acceptance -or otherwise - of Branden's psychological input.

This was rashly and sloppily written, with some irrationality in it. Thanking you, Alfa.

On promiscuity in sex - well I suppose one man's meat is another man's poison - there is no objective way it can be measured, by quantity of partners, or quality of relationship, in a given time. At what stage does healthy experience become damaging? Usually, in my experience, when one has already crossed the line of indiscrimination. From what I know from my daughter living in London, I relate to Matt's disapproval of the casual sexual attitudes, there. She describes it as "almost a substitute for shaking hands, and saying 'nice to meet you.'" Could be any big city, I guess.

As for Nathaniel Branden, I remain steadfast in my belief in his honesty; as well as highly respectful of the value of his work.

Tony.

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Just went to a bar with some friends and saw people hooking up after a drink or two. I get home and there's a show on with a comedian from london who is notorious for having sex with lots of women. Bothers me immensely almost as if there's no justice and being a pleasure seeker sexually has no reprocussions. Perhaps i'm just scared that i'm missing out and i'm the one with the problem

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Perhaps i'm just scared that i'm missing out and i'm the one with the problem

I can't help you with the main topic of this post but I can help you out with this.

Don't let other people's morality affect you. If you made a decision to act a certain way based on reasonable thought then there's no reason to doubt unless provided with actual evidence to the contrary. Consensus doesn't make truth. Everyone else in the world may agree on something and they may be wrong.

I can't think of an example where literally every person on the planet agrees on something that is wrong (or really that everyone on the planet agrees on at all) but you can see where the idea goes.

Introspect about your own decisions and don't worry what everyone else is doing. The only way you'll miss out on anything is if you make rash decisions or decisions based on what other people think you should do.

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For one thing, on safety alone a lot of these people are playing Russian roulette. If they aren't very careful every time they could catch diseases first off and second off when it comes to people involved with real strangers they take risks of getting robbed like your ex or worse. Safety is something they are at more of a risk for the more they do this. Beyond that though are less obvious consequences with less directly material results, but those have impact every time. Just because somebody doesn't realize the connection to a damage they are doing to themselves doesn't mean it isn't there. It may not be obvious to somebody who knows little to nothing about nutrition how eating a ton of ice cream everyday could lead to negative health, but while they are obliviously enjoying day after day consuming this way it doesn't mean they are not in fact damaging themselves. They may not know how the ice cream habit had anything to do with it and so may not think to regret the ice cream itself, but there will be something happening to them that they will be unhappy about. Now as for the sense of injustice and the uncertainty and jealousy it sounds like, you may have a problem here of treating this issue too much like dogma. Go back and look again at what the real basis is for not being promiscuous. If you can remember that and be seriously rationally convinced of it then you won't worry about being deprived or think they are getting off without some deserved negative consequences. That should take care of the anger then for that part of where it may be coming from. For the other part about people pestering you, just, as has been said, don't worry about bringing the subject up much to get others hassling you about it and as for them, remember what they do is their problem.

Edited by bluecherry
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Bothers me immensely almost as if there's no justice and being a pleasure seeker sexually has no reprocussions.

If you believe that to be the case, why not become promiscuous yourself? No repercussions for them means no repercussions for you, either. If they can sleep around and be merry, so can you. (DISCLAIMER: But if you go ahead and do it and after two weeks you find it's all repercussions and zero merriness, don't come back blaming me for it!) ;)

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Just went to a bar with some friends and saw people hooking up after a drink or two. I get home and there's a show on with a comedian from london who is notorious for having sex with lots of women. Bothers me immensely almost as if there's no justice and being a pleasure seeker sexually has no reprocussions. Perhaps i'm just scared that i'm missing out and i'm the one with the problem

I think your obsession with other peoples' business is your trouble here. It is also a sign of low self esteem if you cannot get over the fact that other people get to partake in immoral behavior without being able to see the repercussions. Take your emotion to its logical conclusion: Would you prefer to watch these promiscuous people be executed or flogged for their moral crimes? Would you be happier if you were Christian and believed they would all be punished for their sins in the afterlife anyway? Morality is not about seeking punishment. It is about saying how one -should- act, not the consequences of not doing so.

I don't think your issue is jealousy, or that you wish you could try being promiscuous. I think your issue is a mistaken sense of justice. You have to respect other peoples' freedom to make a mistake (if you deem their behavior mistaken).

In this way the promiscuous types -are- happier than you, but only because of your own choices. You must accept that their sexual habits are their business, you must accept that it is not their obligation to hear out or agree with your judgement of their character, and you must realize that you do not have the slightest idea of the context of that person's life or their behavior. If you do not feel like associating with promiscuous people as friends, that is your valid choice, however a stranger at the pub cannot be allowed to affect your emotions so.

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Thanks for the above posts, in all honesty i'm like this because i have a feeling my ex is being promiscuous with the wrong people as she was before she met me. I stupidly thought after almost 2 years being together she'd changed but now we are through she's back to her old ways. But it's none of my business and perhaps i cared more than i ever should have. I need to come to terms with it and take heed of the advice given in this thread.

Edited by Matt
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It's not your job to fix her life for her. She's your ex, she obviously did something to make you not like her so much anymore, so now you have to divorce her from your esteem. She's certainly not sitting around wishing that you'd finally give up the ghost and become promiscuous, she's not thinking of you. You have to not think of her.

And you have to stop projecting her faults on to everyone. People are not all the same, you cannot guess that from one fault that you see every single promiscuous person is the exact same as your ex, and thus hateworthy. People are far more individual than all that.

Just remember that you're not with her, and that you're better than her, and all that same affection you have for her, put on yourself. You're far more worthy of it. ;)

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