Anyone else notice this?

[L-C]

Among all the things I've noticed since becoming an Objectivist, here's one:

The unselfishness of others, particularly friends or family, can get very annoying. Where they'll say yes to things you know they'd rather not do (at the moment), such as visits, favors, events etc.

So you end up having to be selfish "for" them, in order to prevent trouble later on as they become bitter because they self-sacrificed, or feel guilty because they didn't.

A lot of people don't ever want to you ask for anything for this very reason, since both yes and no are answers that will upset them. Sacrifice - or guilt. Altruism sure is a mess.

It's refreshing talking to Objectivists. They'll give you a no when they really can't spare the time whatever the situation concerns, and the honesty between the two of you acts to prevent the resentment that can otherwise build up between "friends" who treat each other with less respect for their respective lives and resources, rather than more.

Edited October 15, 2009 by L-C

[woolcutt]

So you end up having to be selfish "for" them, in order to prevent trouble later on as they become bitter because they self-sacrificed, or feel guilty because they didn't.

Haha.

If you value the relationship and you find yourself on the receiving end of a pained smile when you are looking for a favor (or however it comes up) and try shelving those plans for a while if you can and find something else to do. Think about the situation and talk it over later and see if you're really putting that person out or not.

It takes a bit of finesse, however, to read a situation--there is a lot I'd do for my SO that might put me in a bit of a grumbly mood temporarily, but I can look long term enough to know that it's worth it (but the MINUTE it's not--out the door!).

[Plasmatic]

I know exactly what you mean. Planning things with folks who don't take responsibility for their own happiness is maddening. The most significant factor in me ending relationships, is when I cannot be sure if what they are saying is what they are thinking.Even if their just being "polite". I hate trying to evaluate someone elses heirarchy of values.

[CastleBravo]

I don't mind it at all. If others choose to serve my interests by their own volition, you won't hear a peep out of me. I rarely, if ever, ask for anything, but frequently find those that 'love' me paying for my meals and taking me to movies. What DOES annoy me is when later they want to throw what they did up to you as if you own them something. Completely absurd...

[SapereAude]

I don't mind it at all. If others choose to serve my interests by their own volition, you won't hear a peep out of me. I rarely, if ever, ask for anything, but frequently find those that 'love' me paying for my meals and taking me to movies. What DOES annoy me is when later they want to throw what they did up to you as if you own them something. Completely absurd...

Generally I find when people think they are being altruistic they have an agenda. It is a safe bet whatever service or aid they rendered will either be thrown back at you at a later date or will be cause for resentment. I find this to be more true with family than friends since, at least in my experience friendship tends to be more about quid pro quo to begin with.

[CastleBravo]

Generally I find when people think they are being altruistic they have an agenda. It is a safe bet whatever service or aid they rendered will either be thrown back at you at a later date or will be cause for resentment. I find this to be more true with family than friends since, at least in my experience friendship tends to be more about quid pro quo to begin with.

I say let them resent me. They chose to waste their energy on other people and so be it. Why would I care if I were hated by an altruist? When the 'gift' is thrown up to me I simply point out that no one signed a contract and reimbursement was never requested. When a friend asks that I make up for the debt at a later time before it is incurred, however, I have no problems repaying it.

I also don't believe you should waste your time being "selfish for other people". I think this goes against being rationally self interested. They are free to make their own decisions and choose their own moral code. They have made it clear that they believe self sacrifice is the right thing to do and will bring them happiness (i.e. repayment or karma or whatever is floating their boat at the moment).

[Jackethan]

I also don't believe you should waste your time being "selfish for other people". I think this goes against being rationally self interested.

It's not irrational to want to mitigate future strife by acting to ensure someone's selfish desire is fulfilled, particularly in the case of family members who tend to not go away. Obviously if the family member is being altruist and causing you more trouble than value you should evaluate your relationship with them and possibly not spend as much time with them, but I wouldn't say it is contra Objectivism to say, perhaps, "No, on second thought, we'll do the movie some other time, you go have fun at your party with your friends."

[SapereAude]

It's not irrational to want to mitigate future strife by acting to ensure someone's selfish desire is fulfilled, particularly in the case of family members who tend to not go away. Obviously if the family member is being altruist and causing you more trouble than value you should evaluate your relationship with them and possibly not spend as much time with them, but I wouldn't say it is contra Objectivism to say, perhaps, "No, on second thought, we'll do the movie some other time, you go have fun at your party with your friends."

Exactly. I'm married. While I have a view of family that I choose who I will spend time with and don't recognize "family obligation" my wife (not Objectivist) does. Since I place a high value on her I put up with her family. When my MIL was still alive we often had the altruist/resentment issues to deal with.

If for what ever reason you can't avoid contact with someone it is best to be circumspect when accepting gifts and favours that you know come with unacknowledged strings attached.

[CastleBravo]

It's not irrational to want to mitigate future strife by acting to ensure someone's selfish desire is fulfilled, particularly in the case of family members who tend to not go away. Obviously if the family member is being altruist and causing you more trouble than value you should evaluate your relationship with them and possibly not spend as much time with them, but I wouldn't say it is contra Objectivism to say, perhaps, "No, on second thought, we'll do the movie some other time, you go have fun at your party with your friends."

I suppose you need to evaluate it from a sacrificial standpoint; is mitigating future conflict with this person of less value than what I'm getting out of them now? I do see your point. I was kind of thinking it as I was writing my response but got lazy. Most of the time someone on here manages to fill the holes anyway so thank you

[L-C]

I also don't believe you should waste your time being "selfish for other people". I think this goes against being rationally self interested.

Not an invalid sentiment by any means, but the thing I'm describing can be a remarkably isolated trait in some people. Even my dad, who is very honest most of the time does it to some extent , and although not an Objectivist, I consider him a "winner" in life in general.

[FeatherFall]

A friend's mom spent her tax return money on tattoos for all of her 18+ year old children. Even though myfriend wanted one, she refused 'cause she knew her mom couldn't afford it and is terrible with money. 6 months later her mom can't pay for rent or food, guess who's bailing her out? Gah!

[Timbo]

Generally I find when people think they are being altruistic they have an agenda. It is a safe bet whatever service or aid they rendered will either be thrown back at you at a later date or will be cause for resentment. I find this to be more true with family than friends since, at least in my experience friendship tends to be more about quid pro quo to begin with.

Someday - and that day may never come - I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, accept this justice as gift on my daughter's wedding day.

At least Don Corleone was explicit about there being strings attached!