brian0918 Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) Let's say you're visited at your home by the cops, and they want to arrest you. You ask why, but they refuse to answer. They will not tell you anything at all. You can think of no possible thing you could have done wrong. What do you do? (Assume you're in the US, and no, Objectivism has not swept the nation yet.) Would your answer change if, instead of your local cops, they were state or federal law enforcement? Would your answer change if we were in an Objectivist utopia? Edited October 20, 2009 by brian0918 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'kian Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Let's say you're visited at your home by the cops, and they want to arrest you. You ask why, but they refuse to answer. They will not tell you anything at all. You can think of no possible thing you could have done wrong. What do you do? Assuming they're really cops, I'd refuse to go along until they told me why. I think the law requires them to inform you why you're being arrested. Then I'd call a lawyer. Of course if they try to take me by force, I'd let them. It's not a good idea to resist the police. My question is why you're asking this question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0918 Posted October 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 My question is why you're asking this question. Well, knowing that political corruption can and does occur, and that there are currently laws that shouldn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEgoist Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 My answer's the same as Dkians. I would demand to know a reason, but when cops have guns pointed at you and are telling you to cooperate, what have you got to lose? You resist arrest, then they DO have probable cause. Go with them, and you hopefully could talk with a lawyer. If it were federal agents, I would be less shocked they weren't giving a reason...Maybe just from watching movies where FBI storms in to a building and grabs up their target...Maybe that isn't how it happens. But either way, it is pretty futile to resist unless you know your fate is worse than just being imprisoned. If you're sure they will kill you or something even worse, then as Frank Reynolds says, you go out blastin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Ellison Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) Let's say you're visited at your home by the cops, and they want to arrest you. You ask why, but they refuse to answer. They will not tell you anything at all. You can think of no possible thing you could have done wrong. What do you do? Whether you can think of a reason or not is not relevant, nor is your opinion in general relevant to the procedure, and the laws that define the procedure. How are cops supposed to make arrests, if the subject of the arrest gets a say in the matter? Who's gonna agree with their own arrest? But if they don't inform you of the reason why you're being arrested, that will help your case later on (any evidence they obtain from you between the time they arrest you and until the time they do tell you the charges, and inform you of your rights, will likely be inadmissible in Court), but is not a reason to resist arrest. You have the right to know the reason for your arrest, before you are asked questions, because you have a right to self defense. As for refusing to be arrested, but not resisting arrest, sure, that should be true whether you're guilty or not. No one should want to get arrested, but when that is reflected by actions (such as the refusal to stand up and put your hands behind your back, or evading arrest in any way), that's resisting arrest, and is, as it should be, a crime. Policemen have the prerogative to interpret the Law, and make arrests based on that interpretation. If they fail to interpret it correctly, that should disqualify them from being on the job, but that is in no way a decision for you to make, nor do they owe you an explanation for their interpretation, right there on the spot. The time when they should explain themselves is in Court, or to your legal representative, after the arrest is made and the subject is safely in custody. The same applies to a society governed by fully objective laws designed to protect individual rights. P.S. Another scenario, different than the one you described, is that you know for a fact the reason for your arrest, and that reason is not a legitimate one. In that case, you should evaluate your chances, and act to escape in the way that gives you the best shot. (if you're Harrison Ford, on your way to Death Row, you should run around the woods until you find the one armed man who killed your wife; in real life, a good lawyer is still likely your best shot, but sometimes running, before the cops get there, might be a good idea--if you have a feasible plan) Edited October 20, 2009 by Jake_Ellison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'kian Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 My answer's the same as Dkians. I would demand to know a reason, but when cops have guns pointed at you and are telling you to cooperate, what have you got to lose? You resist arrest, then they DO have probable cause. Go with them, and you hopefully could talk with a lawyer. That's just it. Suppose you're being wrongfully arrested because the cops got the apartment number worng (it does happen), or they're acting on a bogus tip, or have you kistaken for someone else. If you go along and act peacefully, you ahve a very good chance of straightening things out. If you resist arrest, they can charge you with something. I've had little interaction with US cops, but I know Mexican cops better. Corruption aside, they do know they carry authority and expect everyday citizens to repsect that authority. So acting calmly, peacefully and with a measure of respect lets you get out of trouble sooner. I've never been arrested, but I've been stopped for traffic violations. Sometimes I wind up bribing the cop, sometimes I get a ticket. Either way it's ok, and better than being hauled in because you made a fuss. I will say not once has a cop stopped me for something I dind't do. Twice I was stopped for vague suspicions. Both times the cops involved were professional and let me go without trouble. Of course if you lived in a totalitarian state, or even an authoritarian one where epeople just disappear, you may stand a abetter chance resisting and running if you can manage it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0918 Posted October 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 P.S. Another scenario, different than the one you described, is that you know for a fact the reason for your arrest, and that reason is not a legitimate one. In that case, you should evaluate your chances, and act to escape in the way that gives you the best shot. (if you're Harrison Ford, on your way to Death Row, you should run around the woods until you find the one armed man who killed your wife; in real life, a good lawyer is still likely your best shot, but sometimes running, before the cops get there, might be a good idea--if you have a feasible plan) Thanks for that. That's more what I was looking for. How about if you can't think of any reason, but you know the government to routinely snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation? If that started happening here (more often) - and you were faced with an arrest for no given reason and for no reason you can think of - what would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 How about if you can't think of any reason, but you know the government to routinely snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation?The first question you should ask (and answer) is "Why am I still in this country?". The second question should be "How did our country get this way?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaroq Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) If it was known that the government is arresting people they don't like and those people are never heard from again, I don't think I'd even wait for them to come after me to go into hiding. And I'd take those I care about most with me. But were the police at my door and I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, I think I would evaluate my chances of escape and go for it. But then again, they could just be asking about a neighbor who got murdered and I may have been a witness or something. Edited October 20, 2009 by Amaroq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) How about if you can't think of any reason, but you know the government to routinely snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation?You could try to hide, Anne Frank style. The odds are that someone would turn you in sooner or later; but playing those odds may be your only hope if you're in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. You could try not relying on anyone: going it alone in the woods or something like that, but those odds may be worse still -- depending on geography and your own abilities. if the neighboring country is a better bet, one might try to make it across the border. Edited October 20, 2009 by softwareNerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2046 Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 The question would be inacurate to say "no reason." What you really mean is arrested for a reason which isn't right. If that reason is because someone in the regime has it out for you then what are you really going to accomplish by protesting your complaints to the cops or officials? If someone wants you gone, you can do your best to assert that some piece of paper says they can't do what they are doing and hope that someone agrees with you, but that's about it. The only other reason you could be getting arrested falsely is if the cops are mistaken or misled in some way, in which case the best thing to do is identify yourself then stay silent until you get a lawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Ellison Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 How about if you can't think of any reason, but you know the government to routinely snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation? If that started happening here (more often) - and you were faced with an arrest for no given reason and for no reason you can think of - what would you do? The US (or local) government snags people they don't like and throws them in isolation? Like who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0918 Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 The US (or local) government snags people they don't like and throws them in isolation? Like who? Note "if". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Ellison Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Note "if". Thanks. I'll trust my ability to read though, on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0918 Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Thanks. I'll trust my ability to read though, on this one. I was positing a hypothetical situation. So are you saying it could never be the case that the US govt would snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation? Edited October 21, 2009 by brian0918 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I was positing a hypothetical situation. So are you saying it could never be the case that the US govt would snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation?The question is why it is necessary or useful to frame the hypothetical in terms of the US government. Or more to the point, was that your intent? The OP was under the assumption "in the US" and the question was about "arrest without being informed of reason". It was not clear to me that your second question about "people the government doesn't like" is predicated on being in the US, but you seem to have accepted that premise. Well, de gustibus -- so why burden the question with that presupposition? If you're trying to discern a principle, I think the more unnecessary assumptions you add to the hypothetical, the less useful / realistic the principle will be. It seems to me that the underlying moral / political question does not depend on the offending country being the US. If we were trying to weed out intrinsicism ("My country, right or wrong" style patriotism), then that could be a useful assumption to include, but I'm fairly certain that nobody here actually believes that a nation with the name "The United States" can do no wrong. Therefore, I think you should not tie the question to a specific government doing wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Ellison Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I was positing a hypothetical situation. So are you saying it could never be the case that the US govt would snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation? I don't want to discuss this anymore. I don't mean to flame you, so stop reading unless you don't know the reason and are really interested in it. We have a disagreement on the meaning of this paragraph, that you posted: "How about if you can't think of any reason, but you know the government to routinely snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation? If that started happening here (more often) - and you were faced with an arrest for no given reason and for no reason you can think of - what would you do?" , and I think I am obviously right, and you're obviously wrong. If you continue maintaining that it doesn't contain a claim that the US is currently snagging people and throwing them in isolation, then I can't talk to you, sorry. It's just way too irritating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0918 Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) We have a disagreement on the meaning of this paragraph, that you posted How to interpret that paragraph is of no concern to the discussion. I've clarified what I meant to say. In defense of my writing, though, I'll note that sNerd, Amaroq, and DavidOdden correctly interpreted that paragraph. Edited October 21, 2009 by brian0918 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0918 Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 The question is why it is necessary or useful to frame the hypothetical in terms of the US government. I said "in the US" because it was more familiar and less awkward than saying "in a non-Objectivist-utopia". I then added a question about an Objectivist utopia to see if there was a difference, and try to discern a principle, as you rightly guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluNereid Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Thanks for that. That's more what I was looking for. How about if you can't think of any reason, but you know the government to routinely snag people they don't like and throw them in isolation? If that started happening here (more often) - and you were faced with an arrest for no given reason and for no reason you can think of - what would you do? You said "more often" which assumes it's happened before. How can you have something happen more often that hasn't happened before? I believe that's the part Jake_Ellison is objecting to. You added that extra part in parenthesis for one of two reasons. Either bad grammar, or you're a conspiracy theorist and you believe that the US government is arresting people without good cause. If it is the former, then you should correct the bad grammar and make your statement clearer. If its the latter than you need to present evidence that the US government is arresting people without just cause. Either way, this thread is turning into a flame war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Either way, this thread is turning into a flame war.I'm confident that that will not happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'kian Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 This might be a good place to mention the many US citizens of Japanese descent who were detained for the duration of WWII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0918 Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 This might be a good place to mention the many US citizens of Japanese descent who were detained for the duration of WWII. Thanks for the good example. This detainment happened rather quickly, and so didn't give the Japanese much time to flee. It's easy to imagine some Japanese finding out about the detainment only days before government law enforcement came knocking at their door. With that knowledge, would you flee at all costs, risking everything, or surrender? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaroq Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I believe we detained a lot of "terrorists" after 9/11 and kept them without lawyer or trial, etc as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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