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I have read some topics on here regarding Mike Mentzer and his High Intensity Training, however his Heavy Duty 1 and 2 are no longer available, but there is High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way (http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Intensity-Training-Mike-Mentzer-Way/dp/0071383301), which is not discussed much in comparison to his Heavy Duty book.

Has anyone read this book and would you recommend it or shall I try to find a used copy of Heavy Duty?

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I have read some topics on here regarding Mike Mentzer and his High Intensity Training, however his Heavy Duty 1 and 2 are no longer available, but there is High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way (http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Intensity-Training-Mike-Mentzer-Way/dp/0071383301), which is not discussed much in comparison to his Heavy Duty book.

Has anyone read this book and would you recommend it or shall I try to find a used copy of Heavy Duty?

Source: http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.p...8670&st=120

Objective Bodybuilding

If most bodybuilders are stuck on the body side of the mind/body dichotomy, then most intellectuals are stuck on the mind side of the mind/body dichotomy. Neither situation is desirable. If you are an intellectual, you can develop your body in the most efficient manner possible by using Mike Mentzer's High-Intensity Training protocols.

First, it has been said by some people that Mentzer was not a scientist and thus his work is invalid. Such people cite scientists who have never lifted weights to disprove Mentzer's protocols. The fact is Mike Mentzer developed his bodybuilding protocols based upon his successful 30+ year career of weightlifting/bodybuilding and personally training thousands of clients. After extensive note taking, careful observation and a dedication to rational thinking, Mentzer assembled a program of objective bodybuilding.

The common approach to weightlifting & bodybuilding that is promulgated by the establishment is a high-volume/supplements approach. This has its origin in Europe -- particularly Germany -- during the early 20th century. Budding athletes such as Arnold Schwarzenegger & Franco Columbu adopted this approach in Germany in the mid-20th century. Upon immigrating to America, such people popularized it around the globe via magazines, books & seminars.

The high-volume/supplements approach is based upon German Idealism. This is expressed by the notions that you can "will" yourself into becoming muscular or "mind over muscle" or as Arnold says, "you must keep the muscles guessing". In practice, this translates into mindless activity: endless repetitions, endless sets, endless exercises, endless workouts. "If you will it, it will happen."

The problem with this approach is that it is subjective. Not being anchored in reality, adherents quickly burnout via overtraining and must turn to supplements to help the body recover from the exhaustive effects of chronic energy expenditure. Eventually supplements are not enough so adherents must turn to illegal/dangerous drugs such as steroids and growth hormones to endure endless exercise. Adherents that do not use copious amounts of supplements or illegal substances stagnate in their physical development. This is referred to as "hitting a plateau". Such people usually quit weightlifting within their first two years. The frustration is too much -- not to mention the chronic aches, pains & injuries.

The genius of Mike Mentzer was to take a road less traveled. He was viciously denounced and attacked for deviating from bodybuilding orthodoxy. Yet he was committed to a rational course of action even if the rest of the bodybuilding world rejected him. After extensive study, practice, experimentation and refinement, Mentzer developed a high-intensity/natural approach to bodybuilding. This literally took his entire life to complete. He died just hours after completing what he claimed was the final evolution of his High-Intensity Training protocols.

The high-intensity/natural approach to bodybuilding is based upon the research of Arthur Jones, Ayn Rand's Objectivism and Francis Bacon's scientific method. After much trial and error -- after developing theories and testing them in reality -- Mentzer revised & refined his protocols into an objective approach to bodybuilding. Contradicting the arbitrary assertions from the bodybuilding establishment such as "4 sets of 10", Mentzer propounded the idea of "1 set to failure". Yet the entire bodybuilding establishment, being based upon Subjectivism, was ensconced in supplements/drugs to keep it going. Mentzer's assertion meant that endless supplements/drugs were not necessary.

So Mentzer was attacked and dismissed as crazy. Advocates of subjective bodybuilding launched ad hominem attacks at Mentzer, even claiming he drank his own urine. In 1980 Arnold Schwarzenegger summoned his influence to "teach Mentzer a lesson". Yet reality cannot be denied for long. Thus people eventually learned his protocols and made consistent progress from minimal work. And this is the key to objective bodybuilding.

Nature is stingy when it comes to building muscles. A person will not build muscles by lifting a pencil 10 times or 100 times or a 1000 times. Such activity merely wastes time & energy. The key is doing the minimal amount of work necessary to stimulate muscular growth and then do no more. The rest of the body's energy is used in (1) recovering from the workout and later (2) repairing the damaged muscle fibers in a manner that causes a slight increase in their size and strength. That's it.

Upon integrating Mentzer's most developed works -- High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way (book) and Mike Mentzer's HIT Exercise DVD -- I've summarized his ideal workout:

Week 1: Torso (3 sets, 25 minutes)

Week 2: Legs (4 sets, 12 minutes)

Week 3: Shoulders/Arms (4 sets, 15 minutes)

Week 4: Legs (4 sets, 12 minutes)

This 4-week workout cycle takes approximately one hour per month and is repeated from month to month. Below are the actual exercises.

Torso Workout

Chest: 1 set chest flye (6-10 reps) superset with incline press (1-3 reps)

Back: 1 set straight-arm pull-down (6-10 reps) superset with palms-up pull-down (6-10 reps)

Entire body: 1 set deadlift (5-8 reps)

Legs Workout

Quadriceps: 1 set leg extension (8-15 reps) superset with leg press (8-15 reps)

Hamstrings: 1 set leg curls (8-15 reps)

Calves: 1 set standing calf raise (12-20 reps)

Abs: 1 set sit-up (12-20 reps)

Shoulders/Arms Workout

Shoulders: 1 set lateral raise (6-10 reps). 1 set bent-over raise (6-10 reps)

Biceps: 1 set curl (6-10 reps)

Triceps: 1 set cable press-down (6-10 reps) superset with dip (3-5 reps)

Here are some tips for implementing Mentzer's High-Intensity Training protocols:

* Do the minimal amount of warm-up required to get your mind & body prepared.

* Machines such as Nautilus & Smith Machine are recommended for safety, good form & working the muscles in the fully contracted (isometric) position.

* Use Mentzer's 4-2-4 count on each rep: count 1, 2, 3, 4 on the positive portion of the lift then count 1, 2 on the isometric or contracted position and count 1, 2, 3, 4 on the negative portion of the lift. This works each aspect of the muscle fully and increases the intensity of the exercise by removing momentum (and makes each exercise safer).

* Workout approximately once per week -- some people might be ready for another workout in 6 days, others in 8 days or longer.

* Keep notes of each workout and make sure you progress in strength each workout. If you are not progressing, you might require more time between workouts.

* Beginners (0-1 year of lifting experience) should perform basic compound movements like the squat, deadlift, power clean, military press, bench press, bent-over row & chin-up to develop a basic foundation of strength and muscle mass.

* After 1 year or more of lifting experience, a person is ready to use High-Intensity Training protocols.

* According to Mentzer, you can fulfill your genetic potential for muscular development in 1 year using HIT protocols properly.

* Consult Mentzer's HIT book (2002) & HIT DVD (2004) for more information.

* Supplements such as creatine & protein powder are not inherently bad, but they should not be used to overcome improper training methods. Illegal drugs such as steroids & growth hormones should be avoided because they can distort body parts and permanently damage organs.

Source: http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.p...8670&st=120

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IMO, any lifter must utilize Mentzer's training principles. Try lifting 4+ sets of heavy for every exercise for multiple years straight, and you'll find that your nervous system, skeletal system, and even cardiovascular system will be extremely tired. Even taking breaks from lifting altogether is not enough. The body cannot continually be trained like it is a gorilla. I highly recommend adhering to Mentzer's principles if you want to be able to lift for life. The book is definitely worth purchasing, the philosophy is pretty simple...less sets, less time lifting.

Less sets, it was a good book.

Edited by softwareNerd
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Less is more baby! That what my boy used to always say about sets and reps! More efficiency higher intensity.I will add that this method takes a signifigant amount of focus and mental toughness,along with a willingness to endure physical pain.

Edited by Plasmatic
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High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way was Mentzer's last work before his death, and represents his latest thinking. It is a very solid book and I highly reccomend it.

I'm personally trying to figure out the cardio piece now. My run time had gotten pretty terrible without performing much cardio so I decided to take October off from lifting and instead limit my workouts to one intense running day (min time two mile run) every three days. I'd rather have the body of a tri-athelete than a body builder so its just a matter of applying Mentzer's (valid) theories towards that end.

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High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way was Mentzer's last work before his death, and represents his latest thinking. It is a very solid book and I highly reccomend it.

I'm personally trying to figure out the cardio piece now. My run time had gotten pretty terrible without performing much cardio so I decided to take October off from lifting and instead limit my workouts to one intense running day (min time two mile run) every three days. I'd rather have the body of a tri-athelete than a body builder so its just a matter of applying Mentzer's (valid) theories towards that end.

You will not be good at running long distances without practicing running. This is both because it's a skill and because heavy strength training will not increase the amount of mithochondria very much in the muscles. I also doubt that a Heavy Duty routine will do anything to help your cardio; the imposed demands are just too low. I mean, your heart rate will reach like 150-160bpm for 5 minutes, tops, once per week.

If you want good results on your cardio while strength training I suggest a more typical HIT-routine. For example:

Breathing squats (20-30 reps)

Pullovers

(repeat)

Calf raises (20-30 reps with a brief pause at top and bottom)

Overhead presses

Chins or lat pulldowns

Dips

(repeat chins/dips)

Abs

(This can be rotated with a push/pull-routine where you do deadlifts, presses and rows instead of squats, chins and dips).

Perform everything to failure without any rest(run between exercises if you can). You can also try resting 5-10 minutes and then perform the routine again, and if you are really serious about cardio you can try finishing off with 10-15 minutes of HIIT on the treadmill(good for cardio, bad for strength).

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I have read some topics on here regarding Mike Mentzer and his High Intensity Training, however his Heavy Duty 1 and 2 are no longer available, but there is High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way (http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Intensity-Training-Mike-Mentzer-Way/dp/0071383301), which is not discussed much in comparison to his Heavy Duty book.

Has anyone read this book and would you recommend it or shall I try to find a used copy of Heavy Duty?

If you want a book recommendation, I suggest "The New H.I.T." by Ellington Darden, Ph.D. Although not an Objectivist, he is probably the world's foremost authority on HIT. "Body by Science" by Doug McGuff, MD is also a good book.

Edited by BRG253
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I have read some topics on here regarding Mike Mentzer and his High Intensity Training, however his Heavy Duty 1 and 2 are no longer available, but there is High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way (http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Intensity-Training-Mike-Mentzer-Way/dp/0071383301), which is not discussed much in comparison to his Heavy Duty book.

Has anyone read this book and would you recommend it or shall I try to find a used copy of Heavy Duty?

I have finally read this book and I highly recommend it. I've also ordered The Stress of Life by Hans Selye which is what Mentzer discusses in this book pertaining to the principle of adaptation.

There is so much nonsense in bodybuilding articles online and it's great to finally read something explaining why I should do this or that, rather than opinions based on nothing.

Mentzer is right about the importance of learning about anatomy and the function of each muscle as then you have a clear idea as to what you are doing when you exercise. For instance, I have spent the last few months doing wide grip pull ups, which I believe has contributed to my shoulder problem. However the latissimus dorsi is connected to the upper arm and the function is to bring the arm down toward the body, but the wide grip pull up does not allow a full range of movement so the muscle is not being fully worked.

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If your shoulders hurt after wide grip pull ups it's an indication that your shoulder rotators are weak and lack mobility. It might be worth it to specifically work on correcting that as weak rotators would make your shoulders more prone to injury and could have a negative effect on your posture(inwards rotated shoulders). For example exchaning pull ups for rows, adding face-pulls and some light rotator cuff work. After working on that for a while you might also find it easier to activate the lats when doing pull ups(especially if you can perform them with chest up, elbows out and going behind the neck).

Edited by Alfa
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Hello chaps,

His appeal to reason attracted me, as it must of all of you. In his final work he mentioned Rand's philosophy explicitly- this was my introduction to objectivism.

I was 18 then, now I'm 24 and an exercise scientist at the university of Salford.

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If you guys want cardio endurance, go vegan and drink 8 glasses of water a day. I sprinted 10mph for over 15 minutes straight after not doing any cardio for probably 2 months after getting on this diet for about 3 weeks. I still had steam in the tank and ran 6mph for another 45 minutes afterward. While this happened I increased my bench press from 145 (1 rep) to 250 lbs (1 rep) in less than 2 weeks. It's sort of hard to keep the muscle mass up unless you are eating a ton of non meat/non dairy food, but you will be in a state of disbelief when you jump on a treadmill after following this diet for 3 weeks.

I'm not selling anything here, I was fascinated.

My rotator cuffs seriously felt this (flat barbell bench is brutal on them), so make sure to include rotator cuff strengthening exercises all along the way.

Edited by MoralParadise
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What do you guys think about the cycle of bulking and cutting?

At one time I used to weigh 147lbs at 6ft and I didn't do any weight training at all, I used to jog quite often. I then injured my knee and couldn't do anything for 1 year. Since then I have done my physio and have been working out for around 5 months and the main reason is to strengthen my weak knees.

Now I weigh around 174 lbs and although I have increased my muscle mass, for the first time ever I have got some belly fat, which is quite discomforting.

I'm wondering if it is necessary to have these cycles of bulking and cutting, or if instead I should incorporate some cardio work to reduce my fat.

Also, what is the basis of doing cardio work at a certain pace to reduce fat, and anything over that pace that causes heavy breathing, starts to reduce muscle instead of fat?

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I think bulking and cutting are a necessity for obtaining the best results.

Sure, it's possible to maintain an energy balance and build some muscle. It's just that it takes much longer, and it's harder the less fat you have(the body can, after all, use body fat as a resource; giving something like 35 calories per lbs of fat per day). For most people this results in them slowly getting harder.

Building muscle on a calorie deficit is extremely difficult if you're not a beginner, and even then it's pretty hard(and again, the less fat you have the harder it is). A calorie deficit is catabolic, meaning that you're going to have a tough time maintinging a positive protein balance with exercise alone. The situation can be improved somewhat with the help of nutritional timing, but that's pretty tedious and won't help much if you train very infrequently.

This is why bulking and cutting cycles produce better results. When eating above maintenance calories you're setting the body up for a positive protein balance, ie an anabolic state, and you recover faster after exercise. And on top of that you get the very positive effects from strength training. When it's time to cut it should not be a problem mainting what you've gained, unless you're going for extremely low body fat.

However, bulking is often misinterpeted as pigging out and eating everything but the kitchen sink. That's a perfect recipe for getting fat very quickly and seeing no improvement after cutting. A controlled "bulk" is a better alternative, where you eat perhaps 300-400 calories above maintenance each day - or whatever it takes to move your body out of homestasis.

Individual differences should also be taken into account. Some people can gain mostly muscle by overeating, while others gain alot more fat. Those who are naturally thin and underweight tend to gain mostly muscle from overeating. On the opposite side you have people like me who have been overweight and will always find it easier to gain fat. Aside from that it's of course also a question about how strictly you want to live with your diet.

As far as carido goes I think it's a waste of time. Controlling what you eat is alot less time consuming. Granted, some people may find better control on their apetite after cardio. Personally though, I wouldnt do more than go out for a walk just so I don't sit in front of the computer all day.

When it comes to reducing fat it's all about the energy balance you create. On a negative energy balance you'll loose fat, it doesnt matter how you do it, and more intense cardio demands more energy. However, more intense and prolonged cardio also has a negative impact on muscle building(i'm not sure it burns muscle though, as it also has an anti-catabolic effect; if I have understood it correctly it's got more to do with causing different adaptations that "take out" each other - I can try searching for references if you're interested).

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I agree with what Alfa wrote, I'm just not convinced that it should be the primary consideration, in my view it is possible to buid muscle at a good pace even if you're aslo slowly losing weight. (the key is that losing fat will go slowly, maybe 1 pound/week, even less, since you have to eat well--but that's the right way to lose weight anyway)

I'm doing daily cardio (well, almost), and once or twice a week lifiting, with 5-6 high in protein meals that I would guess ammount to around 2000-2200 calories a day, and it seems to be working. I'm definitely losing fat(in fact I'm just about at the weight I used to have), and I'm pretty sure I'm also gaining muscles (not so much based on actual measurements - though I am steadily becoming stronger, which is a good indication that I'm gaining muscle mass--, but I don't feel like I'm malnourished at all, I have great energy)

Though it is possible that I am actually inadvertently eating more, and healthier (meaning high protein and fiber), after lifting (mostly bodyweight training, wherever I can do it, because I'm just interested in getting back in top shape, rather than bodybuilding for the sake of it), since I don't document what I eat, I just make sure it's healthy.

The trouble with bulking is that, as far as I know, it means that you don't do cardio. I suppose there are reasons for that, if you're a bodybuilder, but for someone who's interested in muscle mass mainly as part of an overall strategy of staying fit, there seem to be more negatives than positives in doing that. I know people who do it, and, without exception, they get fat, and then have trouble losing the weight. I really think consciously bulking and cutting is a bad idea, and too much work, unless your aim in life is to look like Arnold.

I would say the solution is (it's what I live by, since I put on weight after quitting smoking) to not do too intense a cardio workout, in the days while your muscles are rebuilding. (I play soccer, football, and jog, and I take it easy for two three days after a good workout), and vice versa: if you happen to have a game coming up, forget about weightlifting that week, maybe train extra hard the previous week, and the week after.

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I agree with what Alfa wrote, I'm just not convinced that it should be the primary consideration, in my view it is possible to buid muscle at a good pace even if you're aslo slowly losing weight. (the key is that losing fat will go slowly, maybe 1 pound/week, even less, since you have to eat well--but that's the right way to lose weight anyway)

I'm doing daily cardio (well, almost), and once or twice a week lifiting, with 5-6 high in protein meals that I would guess ammount to around 2000-2200 calories a day, and it seems to be working. I'm definitely losing fat(in fact I'm just about at the weight I used to have), and I'm pretty sure I'm also gaining muscles (not so much based on actual measurements - though I am steadily becoming stronger, which is a good indication that I'm gaining muscle mass--, but I don't feel like I'm malnourished at all, I have great energy)

Though it is possible that I am actually inadvertently eating more, and healthier (meaning high protein and fiber), after lifting (mostly bodyweight training, wherever I can do it, because I'm just interested in getting back in top shape, rather than bodybuilding for the sake of it), since I don't document what I eat, I just make sure it's healthy.

I agree that it's possible to build muscle while loosing fat. It's just much more difficult. In your case if you're geting back in shape and havent done any strength training for a long while then that's probably why you're seeing such good results.

Often muscle gains are also confused with increased glycogen(ie water) and inflamation of the muscle fibres, something that's particularly true with beginners. What it amounts to is a better muscle tonus, but an increase in actual muscle protein is a whole different matter. It's hard to gauge though without an accurate way of measuring(for example a bod-pod or DEXA-scan).

But anyway, I agree that it's certainly possible - especially if you're a beginner or re-gaining your old form. In the long run though it gets increasingly difficult, and it depends alot on what goals you have.

The trouble with bulking is that, as far as I know, it means that you don't do cardio. I suppose there are reasons for that, if you're a bodybuilder, but for someone who's interested in muscle mass mainly as part of an overall strategy of staying fit, there seem to be more negatives than positives in doing that. I know people who do it, and, without exception, they get fat, and then have trouble losing the weight. I really think consciously bulking and cutting is a bad idea, and too much work, unless your aim in life is to look like Arnold.

Bulking does not necessarily mean no cardio. I'd say that's a completely optional thing. Personally i'm not much for cardio at all, ever(I regard it as a slow, booring torture and i'm skeptical towards the claimed benefits), but it's not something that has to be cut from a bulking cycle and alot of drawbacks can be avoided by separating it as much as possible from strength training and just keeping it at a reasonable level.

Most commonly people get fat from bulking because they... well, do an Alfa. Meaning, poor self-discipline and just eat way too much. It's easy to fall into that because as you eat more your apetite usually increases, and if you don't watch out it gets out of control. I personally counter that by having some restraint and knowing when to pull the brakes, but that's just my own preference.

Of course your goals should ultimately dictate the strategy. Someone who just wants to look reasonably fit should avoid adding too much fat, and it's probably better to always stay lean. For purposes geared more towards bodybuilding I think the most efficient strategy is to have proper bulk and cut cycles but always maintaining good self-discipline(the Alfa-way is not the best, but what can I say... I like cookies :) ). By bodybuilding though, I don't mean Arnold as that look is not achievable without a crapload of steroids.

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The idea that failure is superior for either strength gains or muscular hypertrophy has 1) Never been proven in the literature 2) Been repeatedly proven false for strength in experimental studies published in medical literature, and is decidedly inferior for strength compared to some general routines that don't incorporate failure.

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I think bulking and cutting are a necessity for obtaining the best results.

Sure, it's possible to maintain an energy balance and build some muscle. It's just that it takes much longer, and it's harder the less fat you have(the body can, after all, use body fat as a resource; giving something like 35 calories per lbs of fat per day). For most people this results in them slowly getting harder.

Building muscle on a calorie deficit is extremely difficult if you're not a beginner, and even then it's pretty hard(and again, the less fat you have the harder it is). A calorie deficit is catabolic, meaning that you're going to have a tough time maintinging a positive protein balance with exercise alone. The situation can be improved somewhat with the help of nutritional timing, but that's pretty tedious and won't help much if you train very infrequently.

This is why bulking and cutting cycles produce better results. When eating above maintenance calories you're setting the body up for a positive protein balance, ie an anabolic state, and you recover faster after exercise. And on top of that you get the very positive effects from strength training. When it's time to cut it should not be a problem mainting what you've gained, unless you're going for extremely low body fat.

However, bulking is often misinterpeted as pigging out and eating everything but the kitchen sink. That's a perfect recipe for getting fat very quickly and seeing no improvement after cutting. A controlled "bulk" is a better alternative, where you eat perhaps 300-400 calories above maintenance each day - or whatever it takes to move your body out of homestasis.

Individual differences should also be taken into account. Some people can gain mostly muscle by overeating, while others gain alot more fat. Those who are naturally thin and underweight tend to gain mostly muscle from overeating. On the opposite side you have people like me who have been overweight and will always find it easier to gain fat. Aside from that it's of course also a question about how strictly you want to live with your diet.

As far as carido goes I think it's a waste of time. Controlling what you eat is alot less time consuming. Granted, some people may find better control on their apetite after cardio. Personally though, I wouldnt do more than go out for a walk just so I don't sit in front of the computer all day.

When it comes to reducing fat it's all about the energy balance you create. On a negative energy balance you'll loose fat, it doesnt matter how you do it, and more intense cardio demands more energy. However, more intense and prolonged cardio also has a negative impact on muscle building(i'm not sure it burns muscle though, as it also has an anti-catabolic effect; if I have understood it correctly it's got more to do with causing different adaptations that "take out" each other - I can try searching for references if you're interested).

Yes if you could find those references I will give you a cookie :)

I used to eat 3 meals per day but now eat 5, so I eat every 3 hours and drink a lot more than I used to as it is required to transport the nutrients. I would say that previously I was dehydrated all of the time, but now I have around 500ml after each meal so it works out to around the recommended requirement of 2 litres per day.

I don't pig out at all, my meals are very small and my 2 minor meals are only 2 pieces of toast for 1 meal while the other is a muffin. I eat tuna quite often as it has lots of protein, of which I have around 1-1.2g per kg of bodyweight.

I think a major contribution of my weight gain, aside from the strength gain, is due to a great reduction in activity, otherwise known as laziness. I used to be very active but this caused problems with my knees and because I live in a country with a Soviet style healthcare, I don't want to go through the nightmare I had last time with my knee. It went something like this:

-See doctor: He gives me painkillers for a month, which do great...in giving me stomach ache.

-See doctor: He sends me to physio...2 weeks later.

-See physio for several weeks, problem not resolved.

-Wait a month or 2 to see a foot specialist: He has no idea.

-Wait a month or two for x ray. No problem with bones.

-Wait 3 months or so to see a consultant. He spends 5 minutes playing with my leg and books a date for keyhole surgery inspection...several months down the line.

-Receive letter from Bupa (private healthcare) telling me that the NHS has handed over my case to them. Reduction in time to surgery.

-Bupa surgery: Keyhole surgery, wake up 40 minutes later, problem solved.

All in all, it took a whole year just to remove some debris from my knee, and during the whole time I could not run or play football and it often hurt just to walk. I was even told that if the NHS were to have operated, it would have increased my recovery time because they didn't have the tools for keyhole surgery.

So now my main goal is strong legs, but since I'll be working out I may as well improve my upper body.

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I'm getting tired of the blind praise for Mentzer in Objectivist circles :dough: Though I also grow tired of responding to every single Mentzer thread...

So I've decided to write an article entitled "Mike Mentzer: The David Kelley of Bodybuilding" - not sure when it'll be finished though. Stay tuned :P

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Hello chaps,

His appeal to reason attracted me, as it must of all of you. In his final work he mentioned Rand's philosophy explicitly- this was my introduction to objectivism.

I was 18 then, now I'm 24 and an exercise scientist at the university of Salford.

I started with Arthur Jones work, where I liked his reasonng and no-nonsense attitude. Even though I now disagree with alot of things I still regard him as a genius.

Later I moved to Ellington Darden's work and other HIT stuff. Tried Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty for a while too, but that did nothing for me.

I've managed a complete transformation with HIT style routines(and diet, of course), but I also plateued for a long while and havent made progress until lately when i've experimented with higher volume. I regard HIT as a very time efficient way to get in shape for most people, but i'm not sure it brings the best possible results if used exclusively.

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I'm getting tired of the blind praise for Mentzer in Objectivist circles :pimp: Though I also grow tired of responding to every single Mentzer thread...

So I've decided to write an article entitled "Mike Mentzer: The David Kelley of Bodybuilding" - not sure when it'll be finished though. Stay tuned :P

You just did respond to a Mentzer thread, and your post was 100% useless in helping anyone with any information. I would say that's a bad omen for your article. (so is the title by the way)

And this is your first post, so you haven't responded to any other Mentzer threads on this site.

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You just did respond to a Mentzer thread, and your post was 100% useless in helping anyone with any information. I would say that's a bad omen for your article. (so is the title by the way)

And this is your first post, so you haven't responded to any other Mentzer threads on this site.

:pimp:

My post was meant to be a teaser - the essay will be more informative. However, if you've read the essays against Kelley (The ARI-TOC Dispute), my essay against Mentzer will be similar in nature. In fact, anyone talented in philosophical detection can do this on your own; substitute HST (Bryan Haycock, Dan Moore, Borge Fagerli, etc.) for ARI, & HIT (Mike Mentzer, Arthur Jones, Ellington Darden, etc.) for TOC, then digest the arguments against Kelley & see if you can notice the parallels against Mentzer.

I used to post as 'BIGBANGSingh,' where I previously argued against Mentzer.

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All in all, it took a whole year just to remove some debris from my knee, and during the whole time I could not run or play football and it often hurt just to walk. I was even told that if the NHS were to have operated, it would have increased my recovery time because they didn't have the tools for keyhole surgery.

So now my main goal is strong legs, but since I'll be working out I may as well improve my upper body.

Did you hurt your knee from running or playing sports? Knee problems seem very common among runners, so if you're thinking about doing that for cardio it might be wiser to choose some other low-impact form of exercise.

As for leg exercises I would ditch the Mentzer routines, atleast for now. If I understand your situation correctly your leg muscles have atrophied and your knees probably lack stability because of that. For that reason it seems lika a better approach to first build a solid "base", where you carefully work all the involved muscles before going for more abreviated routines. Low frequency and volume routines can work well for increasing strength but I don't think they will give a good, even, development unless that's already there. Basically, if you only do a couple of compound exercises it's likely that the strongest muscles will compensate for the weaker ones. I've seen that tendency with myself when i've worked on correcting poor posture.

I don't know what exercises are safe for your knees, or if you need to have any such considerations. Generally speaking though, leg presses are probably among the safest. Squats can be really bad if you can't keep your knees stable(otherwise, if performed properly, they are great). Hack squats are like asking for trouble. Leg extensions, especially in the extreme positions, can create bad shearing forces that could potentially cause problems(it's generally a safe exercise, but that's for already healthy knees).

Abduction and adduction exercises are very good for stable knees, especially good adduction machines which will also help activate the glutes(strong gluteals are very important, especially on compound movements like squats, as they help the knees from buckling in... strong adductors and gluteals can also help with problems like knock knees).

A good start is probably a few sets of leg presses, a couple of sets of leg curls and then some abduction and adduction exercises where you do a little more on adduction. Of course consulting your doctor first and being careful not to cause any pain when doing these.

One way to reduce the risk of injury is to also have good lifting shoes, even if it's only for leg presses. Alot of people use shoes with soft soles, like running shoes, which give not stability whatsoever. If you can't plant your feet steadily your knees will suffer from it.

I like to add though that I have no experience with rehab, this is just from a general knowledge of the exercises involved. I hope it helps as guidelines though.

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My post was meant to be a teaser - the essay will be more informative. However, if you've read the essays against Kelley (The ARI-TOC Dispute), my essay against Mentzer will be similar in nature. In fact, anyone talented in philosophical detection can do this on your own; substitute HST (Bryan Haycock, Dan Moore, Borge Fagerli, etc.) for ARI, & HIT (Mike Mentzer, Arthur Jones, Ellington Darden, etc.) for TOC, then digest the arguments against Kelley & see if you can notice the parallels against Mentzer.

I used to post as 'BIGBANGSingh,' where I previously argued against Mentzer.

I would appreciate it if you could create a separate thread for HST where you can argue for the merits of that method, after all, if you think that HST is the best method then it won't gain much attention hidden in a HIT thread. I have only looked at the web site and don't understand the scientific jargon so it is no use to me. However, feel free to recommend a book explaining it.

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