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Health Care Bill Passes Senate

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aequalsa
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not really... paying $695 for no insurance is not the logical choice in that scenario. if insurance cost say, $2000, you'd still be better off getting the benefit of insurance for, essentially, $1305 than paying the $695 fine and having no insurance.

There is a risk calculation involved. If you expect to be healthy for four years, you're better off paying a fine and covering yourself only when you get sick or injured. I've gone 7 years without needing the kind of coverage insurance offers. I expect to go at least another four more.

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I guess I'd better add some more news to the fray:

Attorneys general launch lawsuit backlash against Demcare

VIRGINIA:

Virginia will file suit against the federal government charging that the health-care reform legislation is unconstitutional, Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli’s office confirmed last night.

Cuccinelli is expected to argue that the bill, with its mandate that requires nearly every American to be insured by 2014, violates the commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution. The attorney general’s office will file suit once President Barack Obama signs the bill into law, which could occur early this week.

SOUTH CAROLINA:

After the U.S. House’s historic vote Sunday night passing the health care reform bill, South Carolina Attorney General Henry McMaster issued the following statement:

“The health care legislation Congress passed tonight is an assault against the Constitution of the United States. It contains various provisions and federal mandates that are clearly unconstitutional and must not be allowed to stand.

A legal challenge by the States appears to be the only hope of protecting the American people from this unprecedented attack on our system of government.

FLORIDA:

Moments after Congress voted to approve President Obama’s health care legislation, Florida’s Attorney General announced he will file a lawsuit to declare the bill unconstitutional.

…”The health care reform legislation passed by the U. S. House of Representatives this evening clearly violates the U.S. Constitution and infringes on each state’s sovereignty,” Bill McCollum said in a statement distributed late Sunday night.

TEXAS:

Texas AG, Greg Abbott: "Just got off the AG conference [with several other State Attorney Generals] call. We agreed that a multi-state lawsuit would send the strongest signal. We plan to file the moment Obama signs the bill. I anticipate him signing it tomorrow. Check back for an update at that time. I will post a link to the lawsuit when it is filed. It will lay out why the bill is unconstitutional and tramples individual and states rights."

IDAHO:

Idaho's governor Otter already signed a law prohibiting Obamacare implementation in the state.

OTHER STATES:

Texas, Nebraska, Utah, North Dakota, South Dakota, Washington, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma and Alabama are expected to join the campaign.

Here's Cloud Downey's lletter to the other governors:

http://therightsofman.com/letters/view-letter/71

Register at TROM and make use of this tool if you so desire.

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Yeah.. um.. economy wise, 9/11 didn't do the most damage, but I would hardly say that yesterday is more sad than 9/11, having lived 20 miles away from Ground Zero and being very lucky to have a dad that's alive.

This can be reversed, 9/11 can't be.

Edited by Black Wolf
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Yeah.. um.. economy wise, 9/11 didn't do the most damage, but I would hardly say that yesterday is more sad than 9/11, having lived 20 miles away from Ground Zero and being very lucky to have a dad that's alive.

This can be reversed, 9/11 can't be.

While I am not necessarily in agreement with the poster that made that claim I can see the angle on it.

9/11 was a tragic event worked upon us from the outside.

This is an atrocity commited upon us by our own people, by our co-workers, our neighbors.

And as horrible as 9/11 was the reach of this bill.. what it means.. what it allows ourt government to do is much much bigger.

It hurdles us all down the road to serfdom.

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Yeah.. um.. economy wise, 9/11 didn't do the most damage, but I would hardly say that yesterday is more sad than 9/11, having lived 20 miles away from Ground Zero and being very lucky to have a dad that's alive.

This can be reversed, 9/11 can't be.

Al Qaida isn't America's worst enemy at all -- it's the Democratic and Republican parties. Islam isn't a serious or dangerous threat to us -- it's Big Brother.

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Al Qaida isn't America's worst enemy at all -- it's the Democratic and Republican parties. Islam isn't a serious or dangerous threat to us -- it's Big Brother.

Yeah... and Bush/Cheney with their remote controlled planes taking out the twin towers!

sheesh.

j..

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Yeah... and Bush/Cheney with their remote controlled planes taking out the twin towers!

sheesh.

j..

While I think Wotan should rethink the bold letters and hyperbole it is philosophically sound to believe that the greatest threats always are the ones that come from within, not without.

One of the greatest parts of reason is to be able to entertain an idea without embracing it. Despite the poor wording of the poster, the idea is worth noting.

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I'm not sure you understand. If insurance companies can't deny pre-existing conditions, then you can wait until you are sick to get insurance. In the meantime, just pay the cheap fine. That is what everyone is saying. It is much easier to pay $695 until you happen to get sick, then buy insurance, and the insurance will cover you.

There is absolutely no reason to pay the $1305 extra for insurance you don't need (because you are not sick).

I see what you are saying now, yes. I didn't think of it like that, I can't really comprehend that kind of mentality but of course it is logical if you can avoid paying and then just pay regular rates once you are sick. though regular rates are going to shoot up as everyone has to cover the costs of giving people with pre-existing conditions the same healthcare. once premiums continue rising, the govt will blame the market and step in to further regulate prices because those evil corporations are making profits...

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not really... paying $695 for no insurance is not the logical choice in that scenario. if insurance cost say, $2000, you'd still be better off getting the benefit of insurance for, essentially, $1305 than paying the $695 fine and having no insurance.

insurance costs would not necessarily fall to that price - with the ban on exempting pre-existing conditions, costs are going to rise, not fall.

what I don't understand is how they can claim that the bill will cover 31million Americans, what are the changes that they believe will ensure that those people have insurance?

It is the logical choice, since insurance companies are required to take you with preexisting conditions and no lifetime caps. Pay the fine, then sign up for insurance once you find out you are sick. Technically it would be a little higher than $695 since you'd have to pay the insurance premium while you were sick, but you could cancel it after you were well again.

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I see what you are saying now, yes. I didn't think of it like that, I can't really comprehend that kind of mentality but of course it is logical if you can avoid paying and then just pay regular rates once you are sick. though regular rates are going to shoot up as everyone has to cover the costs of giving people with pre-existing conditions the same healthcare. once premiums continue rising, the govt will blame the market and step in to further regulate prices because those evil corporations are making profits...

It's more simple than that. Private insurance won't exist in 10 years or so. It's an impossible business plan and those evil, treasonous dirt bags know it.

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While I think Wotan should rethink the bold letters and hyperbole it is philosophically sound to believe that the greatest threats always are the ones that come from within, not without.

One of the greatest parts of reason is to be able to entertain an idea without embracing it. Despite the poor wording of the poster, the idea is worth noting.

I agree, but...

Im disgusted with congress and the executive branch of our gov. as anyone else, the way our government (dems and republicans) is sliding deeper and deeper to the left is frightening. The tone of Wotans post irritated me, perhaps I should have taken it as hyperbole, as it was probably intended, but rational arguments are what our patriots (and politicians) need right now, not alex jones style rants.

j..

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Attorneys general launch lawsuit backlash against Demcare

I hope someone is informed enough to comment.

What is the significance of this? How likely that this can actually prevent this bill from becoming the law of the entire land?

How much self-governing power do the states still have vs. the federal government?

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I hope someone is informed enough to comment.

What is the significance of this? How likely that this can actually prevent this bill from becoming the law of the entire land?

How much self-governing power do the states still have vs. the federal government?

Well, so far, there are still those two irritating amendments #9 and #10:

#9 "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

#10 "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

They haven't helped so far, but we can hold out hope.

If the SCOTUS doesn't strike this down, perhaps these states' AGs can start a movement toward an amendment to prevent the Fed from doing anything like this again.

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I hope someone is informed enough to comment.

What is the significance of this? How likely that this can actually prevent this bill from becoming the law of the entire land?

How much self-governing power do the states still have vs. the federal government?

The most interesting analysis I've seen is by Randy Barnett in the Washington Post: Is health-care reform constitutional?.

The likeliest target may be the "individual mandate" to buy health insurance. It isn't a regulation of interstate commerce because it purports to regulate not economic activity, but inactivity. In addition, the tax penalty in the Senate bill appears to be sloppily written so that it isn't even a tax on a percentage of income but rather imposes a fixed dollar amount. I am not an expert by any means, but I think that fixed dollar amount approach was really, really stupid from a constitutional perspective, because it has nothing to do with income (even though low income households are exempted) and can't be justified under the Sixteenth Amendment; it is essentially a Capitation Tax on persons, which is forbidden under Article I unless it's in proportion to each state's population (and this is not). My guess? Five justices may very well strike down the individual mandate for these or similar reasons.

Perversely, however, the loss of the individual mandate may hasten the demise of private health insurance as it would represent a loss of income for insurance companies, especially if the ban on excluding pre-existing conditions stands. Then the government would step in with single-payer since "the free market failed".

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