Primacy of Nature Over Reason

[Steve-n]

Steve-n, I think this is a worthwhile discussion and I would like to be a part of it. With all due respect, it seems to have gotten a little muddled on both sides of the conversation and I've had a tough time following it. I am hoping that you can clarify your premises for me, so that I may better understand your point.

When you say that nature has primacy over reason, in what regard do you mean "primacy"? Do you mean that nature exists independently of reason, but reason does not exist independent of nature? Does "primacy" in this sense mean that knowledge is discovered by applying reason outwardly towards nature, as opposed to applying reason inwardly towards itself? If this is what you mean, then I agree- and so does Objectivism. This is not what is being put forward in the article you originally quoted though.

If this is not what you are saying, then what is the relationship that you are using "primacy" to describe, and what specifically does it describe about this relationship?

Yes, nature exists independent of reason, but reason does not exist independent of nature. Reason can make attempts to understand nature. The mind can only understand the aspects of nature which can be conceptualized. Even if the mind could fully understand nature, the map would never be the territory. The mind can at best reflect conceptually, what can be known directly through nature.

I know from personal experience that reason is not the only tool we have for gaining knowledge or guiding our behavior. Knowledge is not limited to conceptual knowledge. Nature can guide us and provide us with information, the same way she can guide a species of birds where to fly. The birds are not going on faith or intuition, nor should we. Since we are all flesh and blood human beings we can never actually be disconnected from nature, and she is communication with all of us, all of the time. The addiction to the mind has veiled this communication for most individuals. When the mind is quiet, you can become aware of much more.

[Jake_Ellison]

The birds are not going on faith or intuition, nor should we.

They are going on instinct, which is an actual thing that manifests itself in very concrete actions.

What you call "much more" on the other hand, is precisely nothing. It is so much so nothing, that you didn't even bother finding a name for it, or give an example of how it would manifest itself. The one thing you said about it that it requires shutting off the mind, forgetting that the only reason why I know that birds have instinct, is precisely my mind. THere's nothing to be found once you shut off your mind, only a whole lot of irrationality and darkness.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Jake_Ellison

[Steve-n]

They are going on instinct, which is an actual thing that manifests itself in very concrete actions.

Birds instincts are an example of nature taking care of all living organisms. You would be shocked to discover how much guidance you, as human being are constantly receiving from nature but are filtering out. You are dominated by your thoughts while thinking you are their master. If you could just get your mind to shut up for even a minute, you would get a glimpse beyond your conceptually-derived sense of self.

What you call "much more" on the other hand, is precisely nothing. It is so much so nothing, that you didn't even bother finding a name for it, or give an example of how it would manifest itself. The one thing you said about it that it requires shutting off the mind, forgetting that the only reason why I know that birds have instinct, is precisely my mind. THere's nothing to be found once you shut off your mind, only a whole lot of irrationality and darkness.

When the mind is quiet a non-conceptual awareness of yourself and the universe is available. See for yourself. Becoming aware of the spaces between your thoughts can serve as a doorway.

[Jake_Ellison]

You're still not managing to even name what I'm supposed to be aware of, when I shut off my mind, let alone describe it. I'm pretty sure there isn't actual space or a door in my head, between my thoughts, so those two are absolutely meaningless metaphors.

[kainscalia]

Nature does not "care", Steve. You honestly need to stop personifying it because that moves you from the realm of scientific fact ("birds have developed x instincts as a mechanism of survival within objectve reality") to a predeterminist argument at the hands of a supernatural entity ("Mother Nature takes care if you"). If you want to be taken seriously you need to calm down with the allegorical personifications here.

Getting rid of the Buddhist nonsense wouldn't hurt either.

Edited January 15, 2010 by kainscalia

[Steve-n]

You're still not managing to even name what I'm supposed to be aware of, when I shut off my mind, let alone describe it. I'm pretty sure there isn't actual space or a door in my head, between my thoughts, so those two are absolutely meaningless metaphors.

When you relax your mind, what you become aware of is outside of the conceptual realm. It has no name. You can call it whatever you want. Becoming aware of the space between your thoughts acts does act as a doorway, it is a valid metaphor.

[Steve-n]

Nature does not "care", Steve. You honestly need to stop personifying it because that moves you from the realm of scientific fact ("birds have developed x instincts as a mechanism of survival within objectve reality") to a predeterminist argument at the hands of a supernatural entity ("Mother Nature takes care if you"). If you want to be taken seriously you need to calm down with the allegorical personifications here.

There is nothing supernatural about nature nor am I advocating determinism. You are just projecting. I could care less whether or not you take your projections onto me seriously or not.

Getting rid of the Buddhist nonsense wouldn't hurt either.

There is some validity to Buddhism, in that it teaches about the formless beingness/awareness underlying all things. This is directly verifiable through meditation. However, I see the goal of Nirvana, to escape the physical world, to be misguided. For those who overcome destructive conditioning, living on earth is paradise. That's my experience.

[kainscalia]

There is some validity to Buddhism, in that it teaches about the formless beingness/awareness underlying all things.

There's really nothing to be gained from talking to you any longer. You are a mystic who clearly has nothing in common with the philosophy. Though I must congratulate you: If it was formlessness that you sought, then you have achieved it in your thought process.

[Steve-n]

There's really nothing to be gained from talking to you any longer. You are a mystic who clearly has nothing in common with the philosophy. Though I must congratulate you: If it was formlessness that you sought, then you have achieved it in your thought process.

You gained nothing because you didn't really want to. Those who take the reasoning mind to be the supreme authority are only limiting themselves.

[Marc K.]

You gained nothing because you didn't really want to. Those who take the reasoning mind to be the supreme authority are only limiting themselves.

Are you still here?

You are a small annoyance but I am going to request that the moderators limit your activities anyway because they are so destructive.

I believe you are breaking the forum rules by advocating an ideology contrary to Objectivism. You are advocating something more destructive than Communism, Nazism or even Christianity. You are advocating a form of nihilism when you suggest that true understanding comes when we turn off our minds. As evidence I submit your own words in this thread:

Birds instincts are an example of nature taking care of all living organisms. You would be shocked to discover how much guidance you, as human being are constantly receiving from nature but are filtering out. You are dominated by your thoughts while thinking you are their master. If you could just get your mind to shut up for even a minute, you would get a glimpse beyond your conceptually-derived sense of self.

When the mind is quiet a non-conceptual awareness of yourself and the universe is available. See for yourself. Becoming aware of the spaces between your thoughts can serve as a doorway.

Here you bemoan the fact that we are "dominated by [our] thoughts" suggesting that we are enslaved by them. You suggest that some "non-conceptual awareness" is available to us if we could just "get [our] mind to shut up" to get it to be "quiet". You want us to be aware "of the spaces between our thoughts".

But you are advocating nothing in particular; "space" and "quiet" and "doorways" are just your metaphors for the absence of something. In fact when I asked you to name some of these "meanings" or "truths" which you have come to understand by not using your mind,:

Your question misses the point. Truth (regarding any matter) exists independent of the reasoning minds comprehension of it.

you were unable to do so. I would ask you to provide one bit of knowledge or understanding which you or anyone else has determined to be true without using reason, but frankly I'm not interested enough in your answer to care.

Your denigration of the mind in favor of animal understanding or nothing in particular cannot possibly be an unintentional error on your part, it is willful, and so, is evil.

I should think that if you were to ask questions about how reason works and how we know it works that way you would be answered in a cordial manner. But to advocate for something which you cannot name, don't understand and for which you have no evidence to the detriment of our actual means of survival is a slap in the face of Ayn Rand and everyone on this forum and should not be allowed. We do have a debate forum, you might like to try it, though, frankly, considering your arguments here, I doubt you'd fare much better.