My Life & Where I'm Going

[ilrein]

I'm finding myself in a low period, emotionally. Depression is too strong of a word but unhappiness isn't. I felt like writing since I had always found a certain solace in it.

I suppose the primary reason for my state is the education I'm recieving. Or lack of one to be precise. Especially so now, during the start of 2nd semester. I see my professors approaching topics which concern our entire lives, being trusted with such a task of incredible importance, of teaching young minds, offering leadership and guidance in a strange and frightening world; and sitting in that class day by day watching them fail spectacularily.

I find myself sitting and wishing that our roles could be reversed, knowing to the very center of my being that if I was trusted with such a mission I would do it justice. Every single professor I have had has failed me, and I don't mean in the sense of grades. Today was another especially crushing dissappointment, because my philosophy professor had inspired hope in me the first class, and by the second it was gone.

We were tasked with answering the problem of Theseus' Ship. In summary the problem goes like so:

Theseus takes a ship loaded with lumber cargo to a destination. On the first day on route, he replaced a plank with some of the cargo. The next day he replaced another one. By the time he reached his destination, the original material of the ship had completely replaced.

The question is asked: "is the ship the same as when he left?"

Looking at the textbook, I saw two rationales; one supported Yes and another supported No. After some thought and brief research, I realized the purpose and the flaw of this apparent "paradox", and I understood the psychology of a professor who would ask such a question.

You see, this is only a paradox because of the way the question is asked, relying on context-dropping to purposefully confuse the student. It blurs the line between metaphysics and epistemology by assuming the concept of the ship is the same as the materials that compose it. The entire strength of the question is simply a question of context, what exactly does the asker of the question mean when he uses the word same? After that, the answer is self-evident.

So it makes one wonder why anyone would purposefully ask a question designed to confuse a person, no less being the philosophy teacher, who is entrusted with the vital job of training young minds. I had all this figured out two hours before class started, and I sat down in the lecture hall with the expectation that the professor would ask this question -- play devil's advocate and refute any students logic, by switching the context of the word same -- and then simply refuse to give us the answer, because she didn't know it herself.

With all this in mind, I decided to trap the professor into a situation where she would be forced to give an answer. One red-headed student came close to the truth of the paradox, he said that you couldn't answer either Yes or No because there can be no dichotomy. She responded with "humor me, yes or no?" and he was stuck.

I figured now was as good of a time as ever, I raised my hand. She acknowledged me.

"I have a question for you, and I would like you to humor me with an answer."

She nodded.

"Are you the same professor as you were last week?"

"What do you think?" she curtly replied.

"Well, I asked you" I shot back at her.

She paused for a moment. Then said "and I asked you." The class burst out laughing. This is the second time my questioning has inadvertedly caused my peers to collectively laugh at me, and this is only my second class. I felt my heart beating rapidly, not because of everyone else, but because I felt a rush of excitement at achieving my goal.

Like the red-headed student before me, she was stuck. She paused for a moment a bit longer then necessary and responded by evasion. She said she would answer my question later when we get to people, since after all, its self-evident that humans are different then boats, then she rambled a bit about the mind and body, then she said that for "all practical purposes, you can assume that I am the same professor as last week. Philosophy is concerned with the practical." Then she looked at me with the confidence of a conclusion, blissfully unaware that we just spent 90% of the class dealing with a flawed abstract question, while somehow still holding the notion that "philosophy deals with the practical."

And for the fitting conclusion, guess how the answer of Theseus' Ship was resolved? She decided "ok, enough of this" and proceeded to lecture us on some equally clueless philosophers for the last twenty minutes until we were free.

I feel much better now. I am caught between a crossroad in my life. I see no valid reason to remain in university anymore, aside from the promise of a undergraduate degree, which would consume vast financial resources and subject me to many more hours of intellectual torture. When I say torture, I am not exaggerating. A philosophy professor who's sheer purpose is to confuse, not educate, is the best of the worse. In my main journalism class, if I asked the professor as to whether he supports communism, he would respond "no" but then proceed to give us a lecture on the pro's and con's of private vs. public radio and support only the latter.

Fuck this place. I need to do some serious soul-searching.

Edited January 13, 2010 by ilrein

[bluecherry]

Have you considered maybe switching schools? If you've only done one semester so far, you probably don't have a lot of credits to lose in switching. Also, an important question you haven't answered here is why you are attending college. What are you majoring in? Some majors may be more prone to stupidity than others, like you probably here more junk I'd suspect in political science than engineering. Are you there primarily because you want to learn a subject or because you think you will need the degree for getting the job you want? If it is the former, you may be able to seek out learning independently of a college or only take specific classes that interest you from various schools without seeking to gain a degree. If it is the latter, then do you need it to be a degree in a specific subject? If the subject doesn't matter much, then maybe try switching majors even just to one where there bad ideas they may have wouldn't bug you as much. If you do need the degree and it does need to be in the specific subject you are in and you can't well switch to an overall less obnoxious school, maybe see if you can get information from former students of various teachers about what the teacher is like, what they do in different classes. That way you could know before picking your classes for which semester which teachers would be the least painful. You may find some information of use on a place like ratemyprofessors.com, as though it is mostly about how hard the teachers are and how well they communicate their points, sometimes if you click on names there will be written reviews with a little specifics about what teachers did that may give some clues to you. Mostly though, you'll probably have to figure out who in the school has your major, find some ones that are close to graduating maybe as they've probably had many of the teachers already, then maybe e-mail them and ask if they would mind answering some questions for you about professors they've had in the past.

By the way, I'm a literature major and your boat philosophy story reminds me a bit of my frustration with a creative writing professor I had a couple semesters ago. I'm no good at poetry, I knew that, so wasn't looking forward to the poetry half of the class. The teacher was speaking to me in his office about the poems I'd done so far one day and that they weren't so good. I explained that even looking it up in dictionaries I'd never seen very clear explanations of what poetry was exactly to know how to make a good one. I asked him if he could help me out by explaining what a poem was. By the time we were done, he was telling me he believed the door of his office itself - not anything written on it or something written about the door, no, the actual door - could count as a poem. That guy had just been assigned as my adviser, to guide me in picking further classes and such, so right after that conversation I decided somebody who can't even tell the difference between a poem and a door should not be giving me important guidance for my educational career and I went and switched advisers.

[Tyco]

I was close to depression when I was at university. Depression is a medical condition that doesn't readily go away, as far as I can gather. Once I left and discovered Objectivism I felt much better. University seems to have a habit of bringing people to breaking point. The underlying ideologies of why you're there, what you're studying, heavily conflict.

[ilrein]

Hey bluecherry,

I'm attending university, not college. I am here for a variety of reasons--

1) Obligation. My parents saved money for me to attend post secondary education, and I was pushed into this.

2) Experience. I figured that if I must go to university, I may as well pick one which would allow me to live independently.

I'm majoring in Journalism, essentially a useless degree, but its really a class in practical philosophy; it tackles all the major questions of our time, concerning freedom and individualism. I do not think that by changing schools I would escape the problems I find here, altruistic ethics have permeated every fabric of society. The frustration I feel towards my teachers is their lack of adherence to Objectivism. I don't expect them to read Rand, but at least to be rational -- my Environment & Society professor started the class with explaining that humans are innately flawed, but we can "moderate" such weaknesses, believing in some twisted form of biological determinism; that the search for prestige and power is part of the nature of humanity. I can't make stuff like this up.

I am here because the subject of journalism -- practical philosophy -- is a stand alone fascination. I am not here because I expect a certain job after, but because the education itself is the end. Hence my serious dissappointment.

My big issue is the life choice I have to wrestle with now. Do I stay in school, gather debt, and attend classes I know are useless for an undergraduate degree? I am uncertain, I do not know if it is worth enduring trash for a shiny piece of paper that apparently I cannot live without.

One thing I know the degree is truly good for is basically being a travel ticket. I have done some brief research and found numerous decently paid teach-english-overseas jobs that require a degree, and for those that don't, typically result in lower pay. Not to mention, I'm only 18, another three years and I'll be at a prime age for exploring the world; but I risk putting myself in significant debt by the time I actually reach that point. I also hate the idea of merely waiting for time to pass, I feel purposeless

[Tyco]

Why don't you switch to a more practical course with better job prospects?

Philosophy, journalism etc. are interesting subjects but do you really need a university to learn about them? (from what you've told us about your philosophy class: no).

[TheEgoist]

Just to contradict, I'm at uni and have never been happier .

[Eiuol]

I am here because the subject of journalism -- practical philosophy -- is a stand alone fascination. I am not here because I expect a certain job after, but because the education itself is the end. Hence my serious dissappointment.

You seem to be quite confident in saying that your current track of education will be a disappointment. It isn't a tragedy if you decide a university is not the place for you. There are many ways to achieve your goals, don't assume you have to simply "deal with it" and put yourself through something that only makes you unhappy. If you like the school environment, try changing majors. A journalism degree is not the only degree a journalist is allowed to have. I like philosophy, sure, but for me, I'm better off learning that on my own time. I don't need to spend thousands of dollars a year on it. It might be the same for you. If your interests are as broad as mine, maybe it would be worth taking a course in something you might be interested in but don't know anything about. Say, graphic design. I took a course on color+composition last semester, and it helped me discover new interests.

[Tyco]

Just to contradict, I'm at uni and have never been happier .

what subject are you studying, if you don't mind me asking?

[bluecherry]

Hey bluecherry,

I'm attending university, not college. I am here for a variety of reasons--

1) Obligation. My parents saved money for me to attend post secondary education, and I was pushed into this.

2) Experience. I figured that if I must go to university, I may as well pick one which would allow me to live independently.

I'm majoring in Journalism, essentially a useless degree, but its really a class in practical philosophy; it tackles all the major questions of our time, concerning freedom and individualism. I do not think that by changing schools I would escape the problems I find here, altruistic ethics have permeated every fabric of society. The frustration I feel towards my teachers is their lack of adherence to Objectivism. I don't expect them to read Rand, but at least to be rational -- my Environment & Society professor started the class with explaining that humans are innately flawed, but we can "moderate" such weaknesses, believing in some twisted form of biological determinism; that the search for prestige and power is part of the nature of humanity. I can't make stuff like this up.

I am here because the subject of journalism -- practical philosophy -- is a stand alone fascination. I am not here because I expect a certain job after, but because the education itself is the end. Hence my serious dissappointment.

My big issue is the life choice I have to wrestle with now. Do I stay in school, gather debt, and attend classes I know are useless for an undergraduate degree? I am uncertain, I do not know if it is worth enduring trash for a shiny piece of paper that apparently I cannot live without.

One thing I know the degree is truly good for is basically being a travel ticket. I have done some brief research and found numerous decently paid teach-english-overseas jobs that require a degree, and for those that don't, typically result in lower pay. Not to mention, I'm only 18, another three years and I'll be at a prime age for exploring the world; but I risk putting myself in significant debt by the time I actually reach that point. I also hate the idea of merely waiting for time to pass, I feel purposeless

Are you foreign? I think in some places outside of the US they mean two different things when they refer to college and university, but in the US we just generally call all of it college. So, I meant the same thing by college that you meant by university.

Sounds to me like no wonder you are really not happy with your experience. You didn't even want to go there and just accepted it from a sense of obligation, generally a non-motivating and unenjoyable excuse for a motivation. Your major is journalism? Yeah, that's much more likely to run into advocacy for bad ideas in class than in something like a biology major. "my Environment & Society professor" -- Oh, say no more. Name of the class alone makes it very safe to assume the class is going to be barely tolerable at best, like the class exists just for the sake of spreading and championing awful ideas. Was that a required class? Could you not have taken something less obnoxious to fulfill whatever criteria it met for you? If you wanted to learn about journalism without concern for getting hired in the field, you could certainly do so without having to learn it in college, so that's the upside here, but unfortunately you are not there because you really think learning any subject there at all really is in your overall best interest anyway. Less grimly though, even if you don't get much out of the college education in journalism and that fails you miserably, you can always learn it better on your own later. Libraries and the internet, properly utilized, can be great for that sort of thing.

"My big issue is the life choice I have to wrestle with now. Do I stay in school, gather debt, and attend classes I know are useless for an undergraduate degree? I am uncertain, I do not know if it is worth enduring trash for a shiny piece of paper that apparently I cannot live without." I can certainly understand this position you are in and why you are feeling this way. I foolishly went to college in a major that kind of interested me but I didn't think would do much for employment because I hoped to use spare time in college to get a lot of writing done before graduation so hopefully I could use that to start supporting myself without ever having to seriously commit to a full time job in something I'm not interested in just to pay bills. I found out too late that there was just not enough time to spare for writing though while in college if I was going to pass the classes. Now I'm just still going to try to get the degree to get a better paying job once I get out of college because I'll need it to start paying off the college loans. And man, have I not been enjoying it generally. If you are going to decide going to college just isn't worth it, now is indeed the time for you to jump ship, before you've committed too much time and money. And since I think you can learn journalism on your own to slake your curiosity and you only went to college at all because you thought you had to for your parents and not because you think it will help you as far as careers and making money goes, personally I'd recomend jumping ship now. If you find out you really would be better off with a degree, you can always go back to college and finish then with the benefit to be gained as your real and palpable motive now so you'll probably not be quite so miserable about the whole affair.

[TheEgoist]

what subject are you studying, if you don't mind me asking?

Philosophy.

[ilrein]

I'm in Canada, here the distinction between college and university is significant. Unsurprisingly, I didn't read the university papers carefully and registered late -- I got into my major but I had to choose from whatever classes weren't full.

I foolishly went to college in a major that kind of interested me but I didn't think would do much for employment because I hoped to use spare time in college to get a lot of writing done before graduation so hopefully I could use that to start supporting myself without ever having to seriously commit to a full time job in something I'm not interested in just to pay bills. I found out too late that there was just not enough time to spare for writing though while in college if I was going to pass the classes. Now I'm just still going to try to get the degree to get a better paying job once I get out of college because I'll need it to start paying off the college loans.

This actually hit me heavily, I have been harboring a similar hope and if I stay on this course I am likely to end up in your unfavourable situation.

Generally speaking, in Canada university is the theoritical route, which means higher cost and more years but ultimately superior job prospects (allegedly). College is the practical route, learning specific skills in a short time frame which generally lead to fast employment. In the face of educational dissappointment, I have considering dropping out and entering college to learn a practical skill I know nothing about and find enjoyment in the sheer reason.

But then I'm scared I'll either get bored of my trade and resent my career, and realize that I have wasted valuable years in which I could have already gotten that godforsaken degree. I feel this is likely, I am the type of person who enters a frenzy of passion with immediate action, only to get a new idea and completely drop the incomplete previous one.

PS: Eioul, where did your choice to learn a practical skill from scratch lead you?

Edited January 14, 2010 by ilrein

[Eiuol]

But then I'm scared I'll either get bored of my trade and resent my career, and realize that I have wasted valuable years in which I could have already gotten that godforsaken degree. I feel this is likely, I am the type of person who enters a frenzy of passion with immediate action, only to get a new idea and completely drop the incomplete previous one.

Nothing wrong with that; I imagine your new ideas are at least related in some way? Say if you liked painting but got into photography. What you learned about painting in that period would provide valuable knowledge about how to think about photography. You're not "starting over" if you begin learning about photography. Even if they are unrelated, that wouldn't matter. You're not going to discover what you want to do by torturing yourself with boredom or unhappiness. You could still learn both of those things while working towards a particular degree if you find that you like a university environment.

PS: Eioul, where did your choice to learn a practical skill from scratch lead you?

I didn't mean I started to learn a practical skill, I just discovered new interests due to the topics of a few projects. But I have been recently working on my writing ability, a skill of mine I had neglected to build up that I can apply to many creative fields. It's not so much learning a practical skill as much as it is learning to *do* something better. I wouldn't list fiction writing as practical skill, but it makes me happy.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Eiuol

[SuperMetroid]

ilrein, I faced the same crossroads in life that you're at. I chose to drop out of college and become an entrepreneur, as I'd always wanted to do. The road is not going to be easy when you ignore the path that society's put before you. Most likely, no one will understand your reasoning, and no one will give a damn either. If you don't go through with college you're going to be a useless dropout in the eyes of many people, at least until you've accomplished something that shuts them up. If you decide to strike out on your own, make sure you have a plan that you're confident will succeed.

[Zip]

ilrein, where in Canada are you? There are a few of us northerners here.

With regard to university I entered as a mature student and left quite quickly after realizing that most of the stuff I was being taught (in political science) was not new to me and that it was all quite progressively skewed toward the leftist nanny state.

So I went to College to get a practical education. Funny thing is there were people in my classes with degrees in architecture, IT, engineering and others who after earning a bachelors wanted to get a practical skill.

(Both the Engineer and the Architect complained that their chosen professions were so heavily regulated and there were so many liability issues in actually doing any real architecture or engineering in the construction industry that they would probably "never sign off on a single plan"... that's depressing)

[Lucio]

I'm finding myself in a low period, emotionally. Depression is too strong of a word but unhappiness isn't. I felt like writing since I had always found a certain solace in it.

Getting mad at the world and depressed seems to be a common trait in objectivism.

You shouldn't.

Let them be. If they want to be irrational, IT IS THEIR PROBLEM.

Find you inner calm, answer in a cool and rational mood, and some minds

in your class will understand.

Some of Roark attitude could be a good example. Be cool. Ignore irrationality instead of getting angry at it.

Acknowledging that Oism tends to drive smart people into depression, (given the actual "mainstream" culture)

will help you also.

If somebody is irrational, you cannot convince him by reason. If they're irrational, they're like children.

You cannot get mad at children, can you? Let them be. Don't get mad.

[Lucio]

Anyway, what is the Oism response to the Theseus' paradox ?

Wikipedia:

"According to the philosophical system of Aristotle and his followers, there are four causes or reasons that describe a thing; these causes can be analyzed to get to a solution to the paradox. The formal cause or form is the design of a thing, while the material cause is the matter that the thing is made of. The "what-it-is" of a thing, according to Aristotle, is its formal cause; so the Ship of Theseus is the same ship, because the formal cause, or design, does not change, even though the matter used to construct it may vary with time."

But, for me, IS NOT the same ship.

If, instead of repairing it one plank at a time, suppose the construct a replica of the ship in the middle of the voyage, and continue the voyage in the new ship. (instead of one plank at a time, they do them all at once)

Ii is the same ship? obviously no.

Doing it gradually does not change the end result.

[AmoProbos]

Just to contradict, I'm at uni and have never been happier .

Out of curiosity, what are you majoring in? And why have you never been happier?

Nevermind, I see you have already answered that.

Edited January 15, 2010 by AmoProbos

[ilrein]

I'm attending Laurier Brantford, roughly 2-3 hours from the heart of Toronto.

SuperMeteriod, how long were in you in college before you dropped out? What were you studying originally? What was your reasoning for dropping out? What type of entrepreneurial path did you choose? How long was it before you reached tangible success? What is your life like now?

Zip, what did you choose to study? How did it affect your life? Do you ever get bored with your trade?

Lucio, I'm not depressed. I never truly get depressed, I just find myself purposeless when it seems that the only course of action availible to me is waiting till I get older. When this happens I blast romantic hip hop and feel ecstatic. The point of the paradox is that it can be answered either way, because it relies on context-dropping to avoid a definite answer. Notice how you have a different answer then Aristotle? Does that make you wrong? Clearly not, both sides are valid in their respective context.

[brian0918]

Anyway, what is the Oism response to the Theseus' paradox ?

Lucio, I believe ilrein's explanation in the first post of this thread is thorough enough:

You see, this is only a paradox because of the way the question is asked, relying on context-dropping to purposefully confuse the student. It blurs the line between metaphysics and epistemology by assuming the concept of the ship is the same as the materials that compose it. The entire strength of the question is simply a question of context, what exactly does the asker of the question mean when he uses the word same? After that, the answer is self-evident.

Edited January 15, 2010 by brian0918

[Zip]

Zip, what did you choose to study? How did it affect your life? Do you ever get bored with your trade?

Cool, my daughter goes to York.

I chose to become a home inspector because it will help me in developing real estate. It hasn't affected my life so much yet as I am still working at my primary career for now (at least until I've paid at least one of my Kids through university) but as I said it will help when I move on.

No. I have the benefit of a bunch of years of being me, myself and I so I don't get bored with what I've chosen to do.

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that you have to be old to make a good informed decision on what you want to do with your life but I think that sometimes parents, friends, outside pressures and unrealistic expectations get in the way of a good choice the first time out, but hey, thats part of life too.

[Lucio]

Lucio, I believe ilrein's explanation in the first post of this thread is thorough enough:

You see, this is only a paradox because of the way the question is asked, relying on context-dropping to purposefully confuse the student. It blurs the line between metaphysics and epistemology by assuming the concept of the ship is the same as the materials that compose it. The entire strength of the question is simply a question of context, what exactly does the asker of the question mean when he uses the word same? After that, the answer is self-evident.

Then it is not a "paradox", it is just "context dropping" or different meanings of the word "same".

If it was so simple, why ilrein did not ask the professor to define "same"?

[Lucio]

I'm attending Laurier Brantford, roughly 2-3 hours from the heart of Toronto.

SuperMeteriod, how long were in you in college before you dropped out? What were you studying originally? What was your reasoning for dropping out? What type of entrepreneurial path did you choose? How long was it before you reached tangible success? What is your life like now?

Zip, what did you choose to study? How did it affect your life? Do you ever get bored with your trade?

Lucio, I'm not depressed. I never truly get depressed, I just find myself purposeless when it seems that the only course of action availible to me is waiting till I get older. When this happens I blast romantic hip hop and feel ecstatic. The point of the paradox is that it can be answered either way, because it relies on context-dropping to avoid a definite answer. Notice how you have a different answer then Aristotle? Does that make you wrong? Clearly not, both sides are valid in their respective context.

It is not a paradox. If you have two meanings for the word "same" then you have two different questions, and one valid answer for each one.

A question with well-defined terms has only one valid answer, and it is independent of "context".

I'm insisting on clarifying this because "validity depends on context" sounds like the axiom of cultural relativism.

I'm glad you're not depressed.

[CWEarl]

(Both the Engineer and the Architect complained that their chosen professions were so heavily regulated and there were so many liability issues in actually doing any real architecture or engineering in the construction industry that they would probably "never sign off on a single plan"... that's depressing)

Yikes!

As someone who plans on studying architecture after finishing studies in Urban Land Economics (Real Estate Development) this is disturbing. I wonder if a move to the US will be worthwhile. I hope to take architecture down there.

Incidentally, the post-secondary difference between Canada and the US is that colleges and universities are separate institutions in Canada, while colleges are located within universities in the states.