Evidence Most Americans May Not Be Income-taxable

[Guest RationalEgoist]

http://anon.taxableincome.speedera.net/861...ence/index.html

Please let me know what you determine from the evidence in the presentation above.

Thank you,

RE$

[Scott_Connery]

It seems interesting and well done. It also seems hard to believe. Or perhaps more accurately, that even if they are right, following their advice is a good way to end up in a lot of trouble.

[Godless Capitalist]

Without even looking at it, I can tell you that regardless of the validity of its arguments the courts have consistently rejected all attempts to claim exemption from income taxes.

[Guest RationalEgoist]

Without even looking at it, I can tell you that regardless of the validity of its arguments the courts have consistently rejected all attempts to claim exemption from income taxes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe that is entirely correct, Godless. If you have evidence for this, would you please provide it? Thanks

[Godless Capitalist]

Here is a half-decent overview:

http://www.taxprophet.com/hot/feb96.html

But I have a simpler idea: why don't you provide an example of someone who has successfully claimed examption?

By the way that site is incredibly slow even though I have cable modem. I gave up after a few minutes.

[Guest RationalEgoist]

Here is a half-decent overview:

http://www.taxprophet.com/hot/feb96.html

But I have a simpler idea: why don't you provide an example of someone who has successfully claimed examption?

How about Howard Freeman, who received an official apology from the IRS and a letter stating that they would take him off their file? His approach was quite different than everyone elses though, and he did not fall prey to certain tricks where one unintentionally "admits" they owe something. His argument was also completely different. The IRS would rather it not be argued out in court at all.

By the way that site is incredibly slow even though I have cable modem. I gave up after a few minutes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's odd. I have a cable modem as well and it worked just fine. Perhaps it was due to heavy activity, since I posted it in a few choice MSN Groups with membership totals ranging between 22,000 and 28,000. (MSN Money & some MSN Tax group)

[Godless Capitalist]

Got a link for more on Freedman? Google does not turn up anything that looks relevant.

[Mystery]

Try this:

http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/freeman/freeman5.htm

Interesting read, though I'm not sure how legally sound it is.

[wishbone]

The message usually goes: "Send me $5 form a booklet that tells you why you do not owe taxes."

Maybe we should pay our taxes in liberty dollars!

[Godless Capitalist]

Try this:

http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/freeman/freeman5.htm

Interesting read, though I'm not sure how legally sound it is.

I'm not a legal scholar, but most of that seems like nonsense to me.

[kuuipo]

The message usually goes: "Send me $5 form a booklet that tells you why you do not owe taxes."

Maybe we should pay our taxes in liberty dollars!

That would be great, but the IRS wouldn't take them. They won't even take the FRN's.

[Lemuel]

Okay, normally I'm not that paranoid, but I have attempted to finish this presentation 3 times, and when I got to the part right after "how the IRS will call you names and steal your lunch money" - right before (I guess) "what you can do about it" - my computer crashed each time!

Freakin' freaky ... I'm tempted to peer through the blinds looking for unmarked black vans with tinted windows ... or the a silhouette of a lone man chain-smoking in the shadows ...

[kuuipo]

I forgot to add in a comment (last year) when I posted last time. Yes, Schiff, Rose and many others are correct in that most Americans are not liable to pay an income tax. Unfortunately, they have led many astray in the way to go about correctly filing. They try to show you a loop hole or how to "get out of it". If you really want to find out what the LAW says, research it, and/or go to a very handy website www.losthorizons.com. This gentleman has put together a book that helps explain the law and makes it a lot easier for you to go and look it up for yourself to verify what is being shown. Good luck!

[softwareNerd]

In general, there could be some laws that one reads and comes to the conclusion that they mean something other than what the courts routinely interpret it to mean. One may also look at enactment and come to the conclusion that some laws were not enacted correctly. So, for instance, one may do some research and come to the conclusion that the basic law that gives the government the power to levy income tax was never enacted correctly, or that it excluded most of your income, for one reason or the other.

The real question is not what you conclude about all this, but what a judge is going to conclude. If you end up thrown in jail based on a law that every judge reads one way, but you read another... then, you're still in jail. This may not be a bad thing, if you are trying to make a point, via civil disobedience. However, it would be a bad thing if you wanted to stay out of jail and simply pay no or less tax.

Anyone who is not going to pay income tax on the basis that the government does not have a legal basis to apply the tax should speak to a lawyer who is not affiliated with an organization that is telling you that you do not have to pay taxes.

[kuuipo]

softwareNerd

Anyone who is not going to pay income tax on the basis that the government does not have a legal basis to apply the tax should speak to a lawyer who is not affiliated with an organization that is telling you that you do not have to pay taxes.

Good luck finding one! You only have yourself to rely on, ultimately. You are the only one who can know your individual circumstances. That is why I said do the research. Maybe I should have highlighted and stated Do the research yourself . You don't need a lawyer in order to understand what is written, nor can one necessarily tell you the correct forms to use when the time comes to take care of your financial business, whatever that might be. They can be useful in your research though.

[softwareNerd]

Good luck finding one! You only have yourself to rely on, ultimately. You are the only one who can know your individual circumstances. That is why I said do the research. Maybe I should have highlighted and stated Do the research yourself . You don't need a lawyer in order to understand what is written, nor can one necessarily tell you the correct forms to use when the time comes to take care of your financial business, whatever that might be. They can be useful in your research though.

I don't think I made my point clearly enough. I'll summarize it thus:

1. If you want to figure out if you ought to be sent to jail, do the research yourself.
   
2. If you want to figure if a judge will, in fact, send you to jail, ask a conventional lawyer.
   

[kuuipo]

I get you now. So in that case reason and logic go out the window, fear takes over........and the makers of vaseline keep making a tidy profit

[DavidOdden]

So in that case reason and logic go out the window, fear takes over

I don't quite follow this reasoning. While I think that people who evade taxes because of some misguided belief that they are not actually required by law to pay taxes are chucking reason and logic out the window, but still I don't see how you can say they are acting out of fear. On the contrary, they are being brave, but irrational.

[softwareNerd]

I think you misunderstood him, David. He thinks anyone who pays tax does so out of fear.

He's implying that paying taxes is like being held up by a gunman. He seems to say that recognizing the existence of the gun is a sign of fear, and he implies this is bad. Presumably, he doesn;t comply with such threats, regardless of what he judges to be the outcome to himself.

[y_feldblum]

I get you now. So in that case reason and logic go out the window, fear takes over........and the makers of vaseline keep making a tidy profit

Yes ... they have lots of guns, and in all probability you don't have nearly as many. Yes ... guns, when they are used to initiate force against you, do cause reason and logic to go out the window, and do cause fear for your most basic values (your life, your freedom, not being raped by a guy serving life plus fifty, whatever) to take over.

[kuuipo]

I will apoligize ahead of time if I do not get this out as clearly as I would like. I will do my best. I am still a work in progress. Fear is natural, we all experience it in various forms. It helps keep us alive at times or can get us killed. Our fear is what is counted on to keep us bound in chains, heads down doing what we are told, even when we know something is wrong with the picture. When you are able to finally find the answer to your freedom, I think it is illogical to continue in the chains any longer than necessary to get your feet planted and break them. I cannot abide remaining in the chains because of fear of what may be done to me for doing what is right. There will always be some kind of chain to bind me, I cannot break them all. I can only pick certain battles because the outrages against us are too many to count. When I contemplate what was said about the judges, etc., I am buoyed with thoughts of the book Anthem and The Fountainhead. Of course Roark broke the law, which is different, but I think the spirit is similar.

[softwareNerd]

Much of what you say is true. On the other hand, while there is much that is bad in the world, there is so much that is good, and great, and rational, and tasty, and fun, and charming, and beautiful, and enjoyable.

[Dismuke]

I get you now. So in that case reason and logic go out the window, fear takes over........and the makers of vaseline keep making a tidy profit

I will admit to plenty of fear when there is a gun pointed at my head. Perhaps I might summon up the courage to resist if I thought that it was in my power to succeed. But the resistance that has been described in this thread basically amounts to making the case of reason and logic to other members of the same gang as the gunmen. I don't see how a great deal can be accomplished by that. Why not spend the same amount of one's passion and energy making a case to the general public against the altruist ethics that make the tax code possible in the first place? It is altruism which keeps the makers of Vaseline in business for far more reasons than the tax code.

And, like software nerd points out, there are many wonderful things in this world worth doing and striving for - is fighting the tax code really the way you would most enjoy spending your time?

Edited December 4, 2006 by Dismuke

[mweiss]

I will admit to plenty of fear when there is a gun pointed at my head. Perhaps I might summon up the courage to resist if I thought that it was in my power to succeed. But the resistance that has been described in this thread basically amounts to making the case of reason and logic to other members of the same gang as the gunmen. I don't see how a great deal can be accomplished by that. Why not spend the same amount of one's passion and energy making a case to the general public against the altruist ethics that make the tax code possible in the first place? It is altruism which keeps the makers of Vaseline in business for far more reasons than the tax code.

And, like software nerd points out, there are many wonderful things in this world worth doing and striving for - is fighting the tax code really the way you would most enjoy spending your time?

Dismuke,

While I agree completely with your point of view, I do feel convinced that educating the public on the immorality of taxation is hopeless. I have been doing it for twenty years and I have not convinced a single soul as to my point, but only managed to get myself painted as an anti-government right-wing whacko instead.

Here's an excerpt from an e-mail debate I am having with a powerful and influential owner of a large number of FM radio outlets in the Northeast (note: he is a good friend of mine and we frequently debate--but he is a Liberal to the core, albeit, a very nice guy).

-------------

[MW] And they could afford a lot more if they didn’t have to pay a health tax, like in Europe.

[DJ]Perhaps, but I'm for spreading the wealth around because it's the humane thing for a society to do. You (and Rand's) libertarian idea of "every man for himself" and "I've got mine so leave me alone" is cave man thinking. For several millenia, civilization has been trying to arrive at a tradeoff between the good of the individual vs that of society. You are at the e4xtreme end. The optimum point is to the left of you, though well to the right of, say, socialized medicine.

[MW] So then that means you are for government making contributions by individuals to this universal health insurance compulsory, which means that it’s enforced, ultimately, at gunpoint.

[DJ]No Iam for 1/ saving money by pulling out of Iraq, 2/ winning that battle by acting morally, and 3/ using the money saved to fund a basic health safety net for legitimate US citizens. Something a littl more than the fre clinics we see today.

[MW]Do you believe the health of a non-producing bum is worth jailing (or shooting to death if he resists) an individual producer who’s worked hard all his live to achieve a level of existence better than the bum?

[DJ]Yes, I'm afraid I do, just as the Constitution recognizes.

---------------

And there in a nutshell is the state of the public's views on taxation.

[kuuipo]

................... while there is much that is bad in the world, there is so much that is good, and great, and rational, and tasty, and fun, and charming, and beautiful, and enjoyable.

I completely agree with you!