ObamaCare and how you will react to it

[SapereAude]

There is a great deal of time spent on here discussing what it means to live a proper existence.

I am wondering if anyone here cares to share what, if anything, you plan to do about the latest government intrusion into individuals' lives and why you believe your choice to be either consistant or inconsistant with the philosophy you espouse.

This is not a loaded question. I have some ideas about how I intend to deal with this but none yet so fully thought through and formed as to share at this moment.

edited for typo

Edited March 23, 2010 by QuoVadis

[~Sophia~]

I found this website:

here

80,000 people have signed it since Sunday.

From the website:

Electing just any Republican is not the answer. We've seen what happens when we send Republicans to Washington who don't truly believe in the principles of freedom. They abandon their principles, lose the trust of the American people, and leave us with Democrats controlling Congress and the White House. Instead, we must support true conservatives who love the Constitution and who will fight for limited government, a strong national defense, and traditional family values.

I think there are other pledges or letters of intent on the internet.

[SapereAude]

I found this website:

here

80,000 people have signed it since Sunday.

From the website:

I think there are other pledges or letters of intent on the internet.

Unfortunately having looked into those groups most are not what I would desire.

Most are pro-religion in schools, anti-choice on abortion and anti-gay.

In fact, they are very like the "neo-cons" that started this whole ball rolling.

Lest we forget, eight years of the Bush administration was the set up for the mess we are in today.

That isn't to say that in the case of incumbents I will not vote for the challenger of every person who supported ObamaCare even if I disagree with them on most issues.

[gags]

I plan to donate money to candidates who oppose supporters of Obama-Care in this next election cycle. I might also work for a candidate, assuming I can find one worth supporting with my time.

[ZSorenson]

I support measures concerning a 'bill of federalism'. There seem to be enough states unwilling to accept these new measures, and enough of a chance that the courts will not overturn big legislation, that this is a possibility. The mid-term elections - has anyone asked what they hold in store for the state legislatures?

I'm not sure there has ever been a single successful constitutional convention to amend the constitution. As everyone says, such an event would be 'scary'. I mean, who would you even trust to do the right thing? Some of the right-wingers support the FAIR tax for goodness sake! But maybe if we knew we were getting the bill of federalism as Randy Barnett has proposed, perhaps it would be okay. Imagine, the democrats so giddy about their transformation of America - and then BOOM! the states change it all back closer to how it is supposed to be.

One thing is sure though, I have only contempt for anyone who still has any sympathy for this president or congress. It is beyond demonstrated that these people are Marxist. Look at one example: Nancy Pelosi said: "Being a woman will no longer be a pre-existing condition." What if it so happens that women are likely to require more 'health maintenance' over their lives then men. Why is that not something they should be charged for? All you're doing otherwise is forcing men on average to pay for women's greater health needs. The scariest part is what their plan is. This healthcare bill is not about what it's about. It's about either taking over the insurance industry, instituting more reforms later on, leading towards single-payer, or just frankly bankrupting the country. They can't be so stupid as to not know that their bill will cause debt. They might argue it cuts deficits, but they can't be stupid - and have to know it will raise them, and spending, and taxes. So, do they want just a single payer? A VAT? A crisis that will inspire a change in our system of government to one more parliamentary (i.e.: more responsive to aggressive factions, less to individuals)?

What about the fact that this bill contains provisions to put the federal government in sole control of the student loan business? How long until there are 'standards' set for what is acceptable 'diversity' training in higher ed. As the prices of college inflate because of more and more loans, more and more people will rely on them. There's no problem here?

What is the real plan? That's what I want to know. From modest to revolutionary, no matter what their plans they will be bad for rights, prosperity, individual free expression, life, and any other good thing you can add to the list. For that reason, not one thing they do or ask for should be trusted. They should be blocked until they are all out of office. Shut down the government, gridlock congress, nothing they do can be trusted.

I'm also furious at all the morons who thought they'd be getting something else by voting for Obama. The most cursory investigation, even a peak at his own website, was enough to reveal what Obama was all about. So, shame!

[aequalsa]

I intend to write letters of support and gratitude to my state's attorney general for taking legal action against them.

[aequalsa]

I'm also furious at all the morons who thought they'd be getting something else by voting for Obama. The most cursory investigation, even a peak at his own website, was enough to reveal what Obama was all about. So, shame!

I feel ya. Ironically, today I find myself wondering where that lil mammon fellow is. He worked so hard to convince many on this board to vote for hope and change, I would think that he'd like to come back to bask in the glory of his achievement, that is to say, our enslavement. If you're out there somewhere, Mammon, thank you for helping to destroy my healthcare, my country, my individual liberties, my standard of living, and a good deal of my hope for a less oppressive future. This day is yours, my friend.

[The Lonely Rationalist]

I feel ya. Ironically, today I find myself wondering where that lil mammon fellow is. He worked so hard to convince many on this board to vote for hope and change, I would think that he'd like to come back to bask in the glory of his achievement, that is to say, our enslavement. If you're out there somewhere, Mammon, thank you for helping to destroy my healthcare, my country, my individual liberties, my standard of living, and a good deal of my hope for a less oppressive future. This day is yours, my friend.

I believe he was banned...

[aequalsa]

I believe he was banned...

Ah well...maybe he still reads here.

[Black Wolf]

In Soviet America, health care reacts to you!

Edited March 24, 2010 by Black Wolf

[Maken]

In Soviet America, health care reacts to you!

[CastleBravo]

"I am the man who loves his life. I am the man who will not sacrifice his love or his values."

It is pretty clear to me that having someone shove healthcare down my throat is a direct violation of my rights as an individual. If it is illegal to be uninsured then they can send me to jail. I do not need healthcare insurance. If I did, I wouldn't need my neighbor to pay for it.

[RussK]

There is a great deal of time spent on here discussing what it means to live a proper existence.

I am wondering if anyone here cares to share what, if anything, you plan to do about the latest government intrusion into individuals' lives and why you believe your choice to be either consistant or inconsistant with the philosophy you espouse.

This is not a loaded question. I have some ideas about how I intend to deal with this but none yet so fully thought through and formed as to share at this moment.

edited for typo

I will continue to live my life as happily as possible, while only attempting to tackle issues of political importance only to the extent that it doesn't negatively affect my life. When it comes to measures of the new health law, I will accept any measure that is forced upon me and any "benefit" that is available to me that adds some value to my life; just as I will continue to buy mandatory car insurance, drive on government roads, and attend and use other government institutions--no one is more deserving or qualified than I to receive these benefits, and I no more deserving than anyone else.

[SapereAude]

I will continue to live my life as happily as possible, while only attempting to tackle issues of political importance only to the extent that it doesn't negatively affect my life. When it comes to measures of the new health law, I will accept any measure that is forced upon me and any "benefit" that is available to me that adds some value to my life; just as I will continue to buy mandatory car insurance, drive on government roads, and attend and use other government institutions--no one is more deserving or qualified than I to receive these benefits, and I no more deserving than anyone else.

Do you not see a difference?

Car insurance is not mandatory, you only have to carry it to the extent that you drive. Even then you have choices to carry only liabilty or you can choose a larger package.

There is no opt out in the HCR, essentially it is a tax on being alive. And you have no options as to what is in your package, the govt is mandating that as well. Do you also not feel imposed upon that (depending on your income) you may be paying far more for the same service?

Or that the rights of many physicians are being violated by this?

[Daniel Casper]

I'm going to stop supporting all Republicans because it's their fault this passed. The failure of the Bush Presidency stacked the Congress and the Presidency in the Democrats' favor. Also, the Republicans were unable to propose a free-market solution and compromised with the Democrats on principle (such as ordering insurance companies not to deny coverage in law).

I'm going to buy the mandatory insurance because I have no choice aside from sacrificing years of my life on the hope that the courts do something, which is not a moral option for me.

I'm going to make as much money as possible to help influence elections for when everyone above the age of 40 dies and today's youth becomes the major voting block.

Oh, and the one thing that I will do most of all is laugh, because this whole thing is a joke and it's pointless to feel any depression over the event. It's beyond your control. The best thing one can do is stay happy and pursue their own values.

PS - Car Insurance is mandatory in Texas.

[2046]

Some on the left wing are reacting to the passage, of course that it was not nearly radical enough a law. One left-socialist was criticizing Rep. Dingle for not doing enough for the People, and telling the truth for once, Rep. Dingle reassured his fellow statist that these things just take time and Obamacare will eventually "control the people."

http://www.breitbart.tv/shocking-audio-rep...trol-the-people

Edited March 24, 2010 by 2046

[gags]

I'm going to stop supporting all Republicans because it's their fault this passed. The failure of the Bush Presidency stacked the Congress and the Presidency in the Democrats' favor. Also, the Republicans were unable to propose a free-market solution and compromised with the Democrats on principle (such as ordering insurance companies not to deny coverage in law).

Everyone knows Bush was an incompetent fool, but he's gone now. As far as free market solutions go, the Republicans are far from perfect in this debate but they're the best chance we have to at least slow the current free-fall toward socialism. I can't believe people are going to sit by and do nothing to end the Democrats' control of Congress. I hope there's a country left when Obama, Reid and Pelosi are finished with it.

[Black Wolf]

Everyone knows Bush was an incompetent fool, but he's gone now. As far as free market solutions go, the Republicans are far from perfect in this debate but they're the best chance we have to at least slow the current free-fall toward socialism. I can't believe people are going to sit by and do nothing to end the Democrats' control of Congress. I hope there's a country left when Obama, Reid and Pelosi are finished with it.

We could throw support towards the Libertarians. They actually have some balls.

[th3ranger]

I plan on mainly dealing with this by laughing/drinking. It was inevitable it get passed. This is a hopeless struggle to stop America from becoming fascist. My main questions are what country I'm going to move to, when, and if I should at all. Sometimes I see the odd good sign, but rarely. I will be greatly surprised if any significant change in direction occurs in 2012. As they say in zombie movies, this entire country is "too far gone." I've long given up hope of redeeming the USA. Pointing out something like "A right does not come at someone else's expense!" is ignored usually. This is no longer the land of the free. Is Australia much better?

[The Lonely Rationalist]

I plan on mainly dealing with this by laughing/drinking. It was inevitable it get passed. This is a hopeless struggle to stop America from becoming fascist. My main questions are what country I'm going to move to, when, and if I should at all. Sometimes I see the odd good sign, but rarely. I will be greatly surprised if any significant change in direction occurs in 2012. As they say in zombie movies, this entire country is "too far gone." I've long given up hope of redeeming the USA. Pointing out something like "A right does not come at someone else's expense!" is ignored usually. This is no longer the land of the free. Is Australia much better?

Land of the censored internet? No thanks.

[RussK]

Do you not see a difference?

Car insurance is not mandatory, you only have to carry it to the extent that you drive. Even then you have choices to carry only liabilty or you can choose a larger package.

There is no opt out in the HCR, essentially it is a tax on being alive. And you have no options as to what is in your package, the govt is mandating that as well. Do you also not feel imposed upon that (depending on your income) you may be paying far more for the same service?

Or that the rights of many physicians are being violated by this?

Yes, I see a difference in scope. My point was that I'm not going to let some form of socialism keep me down, or let it occupy anymore of my thought than it deserves.

[RussK]

I plan on mainly dealing with this by laughing/drinking. It was inevitable it get passed. This is a hopeless struggle to stop America from becoming fascist. My main questions are what country I'm going to move to, when, and if I should at all. Sometimes I see the odd good sign, but rarely. I will be greatly surprised if any significant change in direction occurs in 2012. As they say in zombie movies, this entire country is "too far gone." I've long given up hope of redeeming the USA. Pointing out something like "A right does not come at someone else's expense!" is ignored usually. This is no longer the land of the free. Is Australia much better?

I'm not that cynical; nor am I moving anywhere. However, I always thought the same thing: it was inevitable and more is yet to come on the health front. They've been talking about universal health care fore years; the US rides in the intellectual wake of Europe who has such systems; and soon real universal health care will be demanded by the public--President Obama wasn't elected by some mystery.

Health care has been socialized for a long time, increasing significantly since the 1960's. Republicans have long since given their half-assed stamp of approval to this socialization, culminating in their current support for Medicare and Medicaid, and fascist insurance regulations that mandate who gets covered with "preexisting conditions." Lets also not forget the type of health care system envisioned by Mitt Romney, a GOP front-runner for the next presidential election. Seeing the GOP Chairman on the news recently, saying the party will not push to reject the whole bill in the future, and who only looked to be interested in continuing to whip up a stupid populist campaign doesn't give me hope for a return to the less socialized health care system of a few days ago.

Additionally, so long as the country's path continues on the track it's on, health care could only get more socialized. If we use the European model for unemployment and carry 10% unemployment regularly, the new poor, the lower middle class will be all for health care.

When a significant amount of the population begins to re-understand the concept of rights, then I'll start becoming startled when some form of socialism gets passed into federal law.

[Hotu Matua]

Here is some brainstorming:

We should target enemies we have been missing. I can point my finger to two of them: Christian religion and hedonism.

The American society, as many societies in the world, debate on whether it is preferable to take pleasure or the Bible as the moral standard.

CHRISTIAN RELIGION

We must attack recklessly Christian faith and moral because it is wrong, because and it is evil and because it is damaging us.

The masses in USA do not need Kant to disguise Christian superstition and moral under the cover of rationalism. They still live on faith. Millions still think they can let the Bible guide their moral. Millions more will seek in the Bible answers to the collapse of the world around them, and in doing so they will find more "reasons" to reject prosperity, rational thinking, individualism.

Sometimes we decry Islam as our worst enemy, when our worst enemy lives in within our walls, inside our neighbourhoods. It is not as much Islam as Christian religion. It is Christanism, not Islam, who has taught men to "offer the other cheek" when slapped. At least Islam teaches treating enemies as what they are.

It's pointless trying to persuade a Christian to reject Kant because they don't read Kant. They read John 3:16.

Obama used Biblical wording to support his intentions on health reform ("it's about time to become our brother's guardian", taken from Genesis, where God asks Cain for their brother Abel and he replies "I am not my brother's guardian"). Obama didn't quote Kant, but the Bible.

Ayn Rand said that she wasn't so worried about religion in America beacuse, in general, it hadn't made a dent on individualism.

Not anymore. Maybe the faith of the Calvinist pioneers was one thing, but the faith of modern born-again Fundamentalist is another thing.

Let alone the frontal attack of Catholic church against capitalism.

The Catholic Church is the largest in America, and keeps growing from immigrants (like those of my country) and their high fertility rates. And it will be a formidable enemy of the American free men in the near future.

HEDONISM

We must defend lucid, flourishing life as the standard of value and get passionate about ethics in daily life as we do with capitalism.

We must defend the rational dimension of sexual activity. We must defend romantic love and art. We must defend virtues.

We must present life based on immediate pleasure and short-term goals as what it is: irrational and evil. No fence-sitting.

In the same way we defend our right to live without a nanny state that want to protect our health from our own stupid acts, we must defend a rationally healthy lifestyle. If it is irrational to eat in certain way, or smoking, then it is immoral as well. No fence-sitting.

While we reject unscientific hysteria about global warming, we should promote a lifestyle based on a rational use of energy. Why? Beacuse it makes economic sense. Because fossil fuel is running out anyway. Reserves are not eternal, they are dwindling, and we know it. We will reduce our driving not because of CO2 emissions and concern about polar bears, but because gasoline will become more and more expensive.

Rejecting hedonism and religion altogether will confound our enemies.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Hotu Matua

[softwareNerd]

I'm not that cynical; nor am I moving anywhere.

Yeah. Even if one knows the we are dying of a thousand cuts, the deeper slashes still hurt.

They've been talking about universal health care fore years; the US rides in the intellectual wake of Europe who has such systems; and soon real universal health care will be demanded by the public--President Obama wasn't elected by some mystery.

True. It is not as if a slim minority who did not like Obama but voted for him anyway did put him in power. People voted for him because they liked what he said. Whether they liked him because of deep ideological sympathy, or because he was black, or because they just don't think too deeply, the blame rests there. Obama is a vehicle for the American voter. Nothing will change unless the American voter changes ideology. It is frustrating -- it is the type of frustration the drives people do join the Libertarians, so that they can do something now -- but the truth is that one can only achieve small victories on the margin without some movement in the ideological center of gravity

Some reports suggest that McCain was for the "individual mandate". If McCain had been President, a Democratic house might have taken a slower approach. We would have had much less opposition, because McCain would have been seeking some type of "compromise". Hark back to George Bush's expansion of Medicare. While there were lots of objections among the GOP political classes, there really wasn't any wider opposition. It is not merely that the GOP would take us to statism slower and the Democrats would take us faster. I think the Democrats also will take the country less willingly, while the GOP will take the country there with hardly a whimper. One route goes in large steps and pauses of fatigue, and the other goes in consistent baby steps.

And this is not just about healthcare. McCain would have been more than happy to punish what he sees as the evil, greedy businessmen of Wall Street. It is the GOP under Bush -- via Paulson -- who tried to solve our economic crisis by heavy statism and government deficits. Sarbanes Oxley happened under Bush. Alan Greenspan cheered as we got into this mess, while Volcker (much more explicitly statist) might actually have fared better.

[CastleBravo]

I think I made my reply hastily. Letting them jail me would be sacrificing my life (my highest value) for a lesser value (Individual freedom).

The best thing to do is to grin and bear it and continue to call out anyone who has not taken the time to define rights or values. Wherever there is a facebook status update proclaiming healthcare as a right, I will be there searching for people willing to listen and accept the truth. I will no longer waste my time on Democrats or Republicans. They are absolute children. It is not worth it for me to keep leading horses to water and then having them try and demonstrate that there really isn't any water.

In relation to the "zombie apocalypse" reference, look for survivors. We have to connect with reasonable minds. If this website is any indication, they are definitely still out there and in numbers far greater than expected. Continuing with our zombie allegory, what has ever come from slaughtering droves of them? Nothing but wasted ammunition and energy. What I mean by this is do not waste your time on unreasonable people. Surround yourself with individuals who think freely and will openly accept their own errors. This makes living in a world that thinks your ideas are a joke much easier.

And I wouldn't despair quite yet over healthcare. We still have the option of a constitutional convention;

http://gohmert.house.gov/index.cfm?section...&itemid=805

My bottom line is "If" by Rudyard Kipling. Keep your head up and know that you are leagues ahead of most men. As long as I am alive I will pursue greatness and as long as no man is pointing at gun at my head I will achieve it. Short of physical force, there is little that can stop me from becoming what I want to become.