Virtues and Values

[bluey]

I'm trying to understand the relationship between virtues and values. I recently listened to The Objectivist Ethics (which I've also read, but the confusion is new to this reading).

I know that values are qualities, objects, relationships, states of mind, etc. "that one acts to gain and keep", where one is faced with a choice among other possible values. And I know that virtues are the specific actions that serve the end of gaining and keeping values.

So if I understand that correctly then as a general example, if a clean and comfortable house is one of my chosen values, then actions like cleaning and organizing are the virtues by which I gain and keep that value. Or if a healthy emergency savings account is a chosen value, then budgeting and saving are the virtues I practice to gain and keep that value.

Where I get confused is in thinking about what Rand called the "cardinal" values and virtues of Objectivist ethics: the values of reason, purpose and self-esteem are gained by the practice of the virtues of rationality, productiveness and pride.

This seems to be saying that you gain reason by using reason, that you gain purpose by acting purposefully, and that you gain self-esteem (the knowledge that you are worthy to live - are a value) through pride (the act of self-valuing).

It seems that you need to already possess each of these values, in some degree, in order to begin to practice the virtue which is supposed to be your means of gaining the value in the first place.

How does that work? Is it that human beings are born with some innate measure of reason, purpose and self-esteem that they instinctively practice until they learn to do otherwise? Does just the fact that you remain alive for any amount of time necessarily mean that you must possess these values to some small, flickering degree? Can there be a point where a person has destroyed these values to such an extent that they're literally unable to regain them?

Any insight would be much appreciated!

Edited March 24, 2010 by bluey

[Eiuol]

How does that work? Is it that human beings are born with some innate measure of reason, purpose and self-esteem that they instinctively practice until they learn to do otherwise? Does just the fact that you remain alive for any amount of time necessarily mean that you must possess these values to some small, flickering degree? Can there be a point where a person has destroyed these values to such an extent that they're literally unable to regain them?

I think you'd just start with the faculty of reason, from there you attempt to use reason to survive. To survive, you will at some point discover what values are. Up until this point, I would suggest that you were never even able to act virtuous *because* you had no values.

[Jake]

I think the confusion and apparent circularity might be cleared up by observing that reason, purpose, and self-esteem are only values if you choose to live. Each of these are not 'values in themself' - they are subordinate to the utlimate value: life as a human. Rationality, productiveness, and pride are virtues, because they are principled means to living.

In other words: while the virtue of rationality leads one to have reason, the end of rationality (the ultimate goal it serves) is life.

[DavidOdden]

It seems that you need to already possess each of these values, in some degree, in order to begin to practice the virtue which is supposed to be your means of gaining the value in the first place.

Let me rephrase your statement: you need to already recognize that these are indeed values -- things that you want to gain (and once you get them, you have to keep them). You come to recognize that these values are indeed values because of how they relate to your ultimate goal (of existing as what you are, i.e. a particular human).

[Hotu Matua]

Where I get confused is in thinking about what Rand called the "cardinal" values and virtues of Objectivist ethics: the values of reason, purpose and self-esteem are gained by the practice of the virtues of rationality, productiveness and pride.

This seems to be saying that you gain reason by using reason, that you gain purpose by acting purposefully, and that you gain self-esteem (the knowledge that you are worthy to live - are a value) through pride (the act of self-valuing).

Yes, in my opinion, that is exactly what she means.

Indeed, we could summarize it by saying: You gain life by living.

All this stresses the fact that life, happiness, floursihing, are not static states that can be "achieved". You can't "arrive" to these values. You live them.

Even in the example you provide, a clean and comfortable house has to be constantly kept in that condition, or else it will gert dirty and uncomfortable.

You can never in your life tell yourself: "Enough. I have been doing this cleaning for years. Now it's about time for my house to keep that condition by itself".

Is it that human beings are born with some innate measure of reason, purpose and self-esteem that they instinctively practice until they learn to do otherwise? Does just the fact that you remain alive for any amount of time necessarily mean that you must possess these values to some small, flickering degree?

Any insight would be much appreciated!

Yes. Our nature provide us with the faculty to be rational, purposeful, and self-reliant. But this is just a faculty, a capacity. We still have to choose to be rational, purposeful and selfish. and keep being that way. We need to choose to develop our faculties.

Can there be a point where a person has destroyed these values to such an extent that they're literally unable to regain them?

I think we cannot avoid choosing. And this is good news, because it means that we can always start choosing life.

Certainly, when we have vices deeply embedded in our character, it would be a very hard thing to do. But I don't think it is impossible.

In John Galt's speech, although he knows he is adressing a deeply altruist, mystical, irrational audience, he still appeals to that part of human nature that remains in his audience.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Hotu Matua

[Cmac19]

Yes. Our nature provide us with the faculty to be rational, purposeful, and self-reliant. But this is just a faculty, a capacity. We still have to choose to be rational, purposeful and selfish. and keep being that way. We need to choose to develop our faculties.

I think this may be the most important thing to clear up the issue of apparent circularity. it is not so much that you need to practice reason in order to obtain reason, but that you need to practice it in order to be considered as possessing the virtue of rationality. the value that is reason is merely a constant and un-compromised state of practicing the virtue of rationality

[Tonix777]

This seems to be saying that you gain reason by using reason, that you gain purpose by acting purposefully, and that you gain self-esteem (the knowledge that you are worthy to live - are a value) through pride (the act of self-valuing).

It seems that you need to already possess each of these values, in some degree, in order to begin to practice the virtue which is supposed to be your means of gaining the value in the first place.

You are right: Every man or woman has these values in some degree, they are inherent to our nature as beings. They are "hardwired" in our brain/body that is the hardware where our soul/consciousness (software) runs.

Any person without even a little bit of reason, purpose and self-esteem would be dead in five minutes

And you are also right in that these virtues are gained in part thru repeated practice as almost anything else in life

[Ifat Glassman]

I'm trying to understand the relationship between virtues and values. I recently listened to The Objectivist Ethics (which I've also read, but the confusion is new to this reading).

I know that values are qualities, objects, relationships, states of mind, etc. "that one acts to gain and keep", where one is faced with a choice among other possible values. And I know that virtues are the specific actions that serve the end of gaining and keeping values.

So if I understand that correctly then as a general example, if a clean and comfortable house is one of my chosen values, then actions like cleaning and organizing are the virtues by which I gain and keep that value. Or if a healthy emergency savings account is a chosen value, then budgeting and saving are the virtues I practice to gain and keep that value.

Metaphorically, yes, but virtues are only fundamental principles of action and they relate both to a man's character (automatized state of mind) and to the actions that follow from that. So cleaning my house is not a virtue - but being rational and persistent in doing what I think is right is (the second is fundamental and relates to one's character, the first does not).

OK now to actually get to the points you were asking:

Where I get confused is in thinking about what Rand called the "cardinal" values and virtues of Objectivist ethics: the values of reason, purpose and self-esteem are gained by the practice of the virtues of rationality, productiveness and pride.

This seems to be saying that you gain reason by using reason, that you gain purpose by acting purposefully, and that you gain self-esteem (the knowledge that you are worthy to live - are a value) through pride (the act of self-valuing).

The easiest one for me to start with is self-esteem and pride. Self-esteem is a state of mind and an emotional state. Pride, on the other hand is the fundamental action of pursuing moral perfection - the perfection of one's character.

This means stuff like automatizing honesty in one's thinking, insisting on thinking ideas through instead of passively accepting them (independence), developing one's career and skills, training one's subconscious not to give up values under pressure and so on. All those actions are pursuit of moral perfection and the result is the value of self-esteem.

As for rationality and reason. I am less sure here, but I think she means again, the action of deciding to think and use logic - the long and continuous process of training one's mind to function in a certain way (rational) and the result is having reason (the faculty of perceiving reality).

Purpose and productiveness: One obtains a purpose in life by being productive (that's all I can say).

It seems that you need to already possess each of these values, in some degree, in order to begin to practice the virtue which is supposed to be your means of gaining the value in the first place.

How does that work? Is it that human beings are born with some innate measure of reason, purpose and self-esteem that they instinctively practice until they learn to do otherwise?

I can only see how you would say that about reason and rationality, but not about the others. No one is born with a purpose in life or with self-esteem.

Reason is somewhat automatic, only in the very first stages of a child's development. Low level concepts like "chair" "dog" etc' happen almost automatically. Higher level concepts however require mental effort and focus and are not automatic - that's where the virtue come into play because a choice is involved. Something like "the nature of human beings" is not an automatic concept it requires a lot of thought.

End.