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How do I find out if someone is really Objectivist?

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Edwin
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2 women I've dated in the past tried to be an echo/mirror of my worldview without really accepting it. I took sometime to realize they were just "faking reality".

How can I know if they are faking it? Is there a litmus test like question I can ask them from which I can indirectly conclude whether they are truly Objectivist or just faking it?

Edwin

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2 women I've dated in the past tried to be an echo/mirror of my worldview without really accepting it. I took sometime to realize they were just "faking reality".

How can I know if they are faking it? Is there a litmus test like question I can ask them from which I can indirectly conclude whether they are truly Objectivist or just faking it?

Edwin

Easy: simply watch their actions, positions on issues, emotions, etc.

I knew someone else in the same situation. He made the error of preaching Objectivism and expecting the woman to read and understand it. You need to simply talk over issues and see what comes out.

Avoid letting your emotions for the woman cloud what you are hearing from her.

As she makes errors, discuss them - at a level she is able to grasp - and see if she is amenable to change.

It won't take long to see her true nature/virtues/values.

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Easy: simply watch their actions, positions on issues, emotions, etc.

I knew someone else in the same situation. He made the error of preaching Objectivism and expecting the woman to read and understand it. You need to simply talk over issues and see what comes out.

Avoid letting your emotions for the woman cloud what you are hearing from her.

As she makes errors, discuss them - at a level she is able to grasp - and see if she is amenable to change.

It won't take long to see her true nature/virtues/values.

By issues you mean political issues?

I wish that there would be a question I could ask her with a hypothetical scenario built into it which when answered would reveal her true moral compass.

If she is already in love with me I could ask something like "Why do you love me?". And if she asnwers anything I could know a lot about whether she has reasons to love, and if she does whether she loves me for my flaws or for my virtues or unconditionally.

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By issues you mean political issues?

I wish that there would be a question I could ask her with a hypothetical scenario built into it which when answered would reveal her true moral compass.

If she is already in love with me I could ask something like "Why do you love me?". And if she asnwers anything I could know a lot about whether she has reasons to love, and if she does whether she loves me for my flaws or for my virtues or unconditionally.

Been there, done that. I had to find out the hard way, by dating, living together, watching, listening, observing. "Show, don't tell." . In my case, the tensions rose between the other person's stated beliefs and the true beliefs, and the truth came out.

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By issues you mean political issues?

I wish that there would be a question I could ask her with a hypothetical scenario built into it which when answered would reveal her true moral compass.

If she is already in love with me I could ask something like "Why do you love me?". And if she asnwers anything I could know a lot about whether she has reasons to love, and if she does whether she loves me for my flaws or for my virtues or unconditionally.

I think you are trying too hard - as an Objectivist.

Just talk normally, addressing issues as they come up. Watch the news and evaluate it outloud; watch peoples' actions and judge; nicely question things she says and have her comment on things you say.

Don't complicate it beyond her ability to understand and provide satisfactory answers. She does not have to be a complete Objectivist to love her; she just needs the right sense of life and ability/desire to learn. You'll be able to tell that.

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She does not have to be a complete Objectivist to love her; she just needs the right sense of life and ability/desire to learn. You'll be able to tell that.

On the other hand, what legitimate reason could such a person have to not become an Objectivist?

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I don't know much about this, but I've heard that how one evaluates the play Night of January 16th, by Rand, can tell you what kind of sense of life they have. I haven't read the play myself, I just heard that somewhere, I'm sure somebody else on this site knows much more about it.

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On the other hand, what legitimate reason could such a person have to not become an Objectivist?

What's your point?

I was helping Edwin deal with someone who was not yet an Obj.

For whatever reason someone might not choose Obj. values, identifying that he/she does not do so and is unwilling to change is all that is important here.

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I don't know much about this, but I've heard that how one evaluates the play Night of January 16th, by Rand, can tell you what kind of sense of life they have. I haven't read the play myself, I just heard that somewhere, I'm sure somebody else on this site knows much more about it.

Thank you Schtank. I read the Night of January 16th today afternoon after reading your recommendation. I agree that it is possible that readers who find Andre not guilty would be Objectivist friendly, however such a group would also consist of Contrarians who believe that just doing the opposite of what everyone is doing is the right thing.

Forgive my paranoia.

However I agree that the chances of finding an Objectivist friendly person would increase if I chose someone who does not find Andre guilty. So that is my best hope.

Thank you TLD. I agree with your suggestions too. There has been some events in the past in my culture which could interpreted differently based on your sense of life. I could throw up those issues at someone and see how they react.

Thanks everyone who replied.

Edwin

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I can ask them from which I can indirectly conclude whether they are truly Objectivist or just faking it?

It sounds to me like you will accept nothing less than an Objectivist? If so, that's fine, I'd just suggest that there may be someone out there you'd be happy with who isn't an Objectivist. My girlfriend, for example, isn't interested in learning much about Objectivism. She is, however, honest and productive, and she acts with integrity. I'm very happy even though she isn't an Objectivist.

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Why? I have asked myself that question, and I've yet to come up with a satisfactory answer.

One needs to distinguish between a person

1. being unable to grasp the abstract but holds the proper sense of life et al

2. being unwilling to put out the effort but holds the proper....

3. being unwilling because he does not agree with you but can't tell you.

If 3 is a possible answer, then you might have a problem and need to draw her out more.

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I am actually in a similar situation currently. I am finding that the only real way to accomplish anything is to talk things over with anyone you're interested in, unfortunately when it comes to learning about and changing someone's world views and beliefs about existence is a long and difficult process, and there are very few shortcuts. what is necessary is to simply find someone who is as close to objectivist beliefs as you can find and who also has an open mind and/or an interest in philosophy.. then just talk things over with them over time

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Why? I have asked myself that question, and I've yet to come up with a satisfactory answer.

I'm not sure, but she doesn't seem to be interested in philosophy in general. It doesn't matter to me though; I'm in it for a relationship, not a convert. I've got a great relationship.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is an interesting topic. I have been dating my girlfriend for 1 1/2 years. She is a NYC school teacher, so as you can imagine, she is surrounded by left wing collectivists all day every day. The things I hear about her colleagues and the curriculum are disturbing to say the least.

Anyway, in getting to know her over the past 1 1/2 years, I have concluded that she is one of the most rational people I know. She rarely makes decisions based on her feelings. Judging by her actions alone, and not what she says, she acts like an Objectivist. However, in our discussions, her political/social views are always altruistic in nature. I am trying to rationalize this and point out to her that her actions contradict her stated views, but I am having a hard time showing her. I read to her from "The Virtue of Selfishness" and she basically agreed with everything she heard.

So, this is probably the opposite of the OP's situation. I do not think my girlfriend is faking her individualism....I believe she is faking her collectivism.

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This is an interesting topic. I have been dating my girlfriend for 1 1/2 years. She is a NYC school teacher, so as you can imagine, she is surrounded by left wing collectivists all day every day. The things I hear about her colleagues and the curriculum are disturbing to say the least.

Anyway, in getting to know her over the past 1 1/2 years, I have concluded that she is one of the most rational people I know. She rarely makes decisions based on her feelings. Judging by her actions alone, and not what she says, she acts like an Objectivist. However, in our discussions, her political/social views are always altruistic in nature. I am trying to rationalize this and point out to her that her actions contradict her stated views, but I am having a hard time showing her. I read to her from "The Virtue of Selfishness" and she basically agreed with everything she heard.

So, this is probably the opposite of the OP's situation. I do not think my girlfriend is faking her individualism....I believe she is faking her collectivism.

Based on all you say, I believe it possible that you are misreading her altruism as well as her faking.

Or to put it another way: if you give her the benefit of the doubt, her "altruism" may be merely a sincere caring for others and a generosity with others, but not sacrifice. Be careful to distinguish between those; you would not want to have her change what could be a great sense of life that has probably already attracted you.

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Based on all you say, I believe it possible that you are misreading her altruism as well as her faking.

Or to put it another way: if you give her the benefit of the doubt, her "altruism" may be merely a sincere caring for others and a generosity with others, but not sacrifice. Be careful to distinguish between those; you would not want to have her change what could be a great sense of life that has probably already attracted you.

I think what you say is right about misreading her "altruism." I will definitely keep an eye on that the next time we get into a discussion. I guess what confuses me is how she can share the same political/social/economic views with her colleagues at work. I guess it is possible that she cares strongly about her individuality and the philosophical side of her existence, but does not feel strongly enough about political/social/economic issues to put that philosophy to work.

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