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No, in fact, you cannot take your ball and go elsewhere...

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Greebo
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Sure. I never claimed it would be easy. Logistically it isn't impossible though, practically nothing is.

If you think about how a breakwater is constructed a pile of rock or preformed tetrahedrons to form an artificial barrier to the sea I would think that an outer ring which would act as a proper breakwater to dissipate the force of oceanic waves with a full water tight levee or dike inside of that. I would also build tall buildings all along this inner dyke to add mass to and back up the system.

Resources are scarce but as seamounts are usually composed of volcanic rock if we're lucky it would be basalt which has properties that are similar to carbon fiber (not as strong but about 5x stronger than steel) Other than that there's aquaculture, wave generated power (though other sources are better).

You seem to know quite a bit about this kind of thing, and I admit I'm very curious about such a project.

However, as to my first question, do you know of a specific seamount that is so uninteresting to never be studied by any sort of scientific or environmental organization? The main problem to me seems to be that if a seamount so deserted exists at all, it has so few resources to be exploited that having a city there would be worthless.

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You seem to know quite a bit about this kind of thing, and I admit I'm very curious about such a project.

However, as to my first question, do you know of a specific seamount that is so uninteresting to never be studied by any sort of scientific or environmental organization? The main problem to me seems to be that if a seamount so deserted exists at all, it has so few resources to be exploited that having a city there would be worthless.

I wouldn't say I know a lot about this but it is an idea that I've had rattling around in my brain housing group for a while.

You won't find one that hasn't been studied, however you can find ones that are sufficiently remote that the likelihood of the Sea Sheppard society showing up to ruin your plans are about as good as winning the lottery.

I can't say what sorts of resources there are but if you have Google Earth, check out this spot.

36 07 36 .31S

125 14 18 .35W

1307km SW of Pitcarin Island

And no, it's not on a shipping lane http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol316/i...16_1866_F2.jpeg

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I wouldn't say I know a lot about this but it is an idea that I've had rattling around in my brain housing group for a while.

You won't find one that hasn't been studied, however you can find ones that are sufficiently remote that the likelihood of the Sea Sheppard society showing up to ruin your plans are about as good as winning the lottery.

I can't say what sorts of resources there are but if you have Google Earth, check out this spot.

36 07 36 .31S

125 14 18 .35W

1307km SW of Pitcarin Island

And no, it's not on a shipping lane http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol316/i...16_1866_F2.jpeg

Interesting... But most of that seamass is still more than 20m below sea level, and the fact that it was pointed out via Google Earth makes me crack up. What's to stop people from simply seeing a city built there via that?

Unless you are proposing building it when a crisis is in full swing and google earth isn't operating... But in such a case it would probably be impossible to build such a project.

I think we have to accept that any sort of Galt's Gulch, barring some sort of biodome/cave complex (Forgive the sci-fi fantasy of mine) is going to be seen by others, and that the only way a dream like this could become a reality is if we could craft a society that no country would ever care to seize.

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You know that google earth isn't a live picture right? You ever looked at how long it takes Google to getup to date images of populated areas in cities? I'd say it takes up to two years.

Another thing is that a satellites scan of a completely uninhabited expanse of ocean would probably be so cursory and at such a coarse resolution that it wouldn't even be noticed until it was well into construction anyway.

Satellites are expensive pieces of kit, how often would you say they spend their time looking at parts of the ocean that are over 1000km from the nearest piece of land when that piece of land is less than 5 miles square and none of it is in a shipping lane?

You are right all of this is a crazy idea, and very science fiction and we all know that crazy ideas never work... Like a comparatively small bunch of colonists defeating a world superpower and establishing a new form of government. :)

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The most difficult part about it would be raising the money needed for the resources to build the island. Generally speaking, its pretty easy to build an island once you have the capital. Take the Palm Islands in Dubai, or Maldives or even Toronto Island as examples. Filling 20m depths is chump change. And later on you might even have to re-excavate for a foundation if you want to build high on that island, right down into the seamount. Construction technology is pretty far along, and you can always think up something new for a new job :)

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The most difficult part about it would be raising the money needed for the resources to build the island. Generally speaking, its pretty easy to build an island once you have the capital. Take the Palm Islands in Dubai, or Maldives or even Toronto Island as examples. Filling 20m depths is chump change. And later on you might even have to re-excavate for a foundation if you want to build high on that island, right down into the seamount. Construction technology is pretty far along, and you can always think up something new for a new job :)

Chris I wasn't thinking about building up at all, that would be a waste of time and money to dump all that fill to make an actual island. I was thinking of building a huge wall around the edge of the seamount and then pump out the water.

Why fill it in build a huge dike, rising at least twice as high as the average wave heights, surround your hole in the ocean with tall buildings (To act as yet another barrier to the water) and then you have the entire center as usable ground for farming, mining and building. Think of it this way to make a 1 sq km island in 20m depth of water building 5m above the water line would take 25,000,000 square meters of fill. To make a 1km square dike 100m wide and 25m tall takes 10,000,000 square meters of fill. So for your 25 million meters of fill you could have an area over twice as large.

I think it would be prudent to build in sections like that as well, it would ensure that a catastrophic failure on one section of the outer wall would not mean the loss of the entire venture

Edited by Zip
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You know that google earth isn't a live picture right? You ever looked at how long it takes Google to getup to date images of populated areas in cities? I'd say it takes up to two years.

Another thing is that a satellites scan of a completely uninhabited expanse of ocean would probably be so cursory and at such a coarse resolution that it wouldn't even be noticed until it was well into construction anyway.

Satellites are expensive pieces of kit, how often would you say they spend their time looking at parts of the ocean that are over 1000km from the nearest piece of land when that piece of land is less than 5 miles square and none of it is in a shipping lane?

You are right all of this is a crazy idea, and very science fiction and we all know that crazy ideas never work... Like a comparatively small bunch of colonists defeating a world superpower and establishing a new form of government. ;)

Oh, I know Google Earth isn't a live picture. I just meant that eventually, the plan would be discovered, even if it did take years. I was just saying that it seems pointless to think it could remain secret indefinitely (Unless Google earth only takes pictures of land masses and frequented shipping lanes (I am unaware of Google earth's entire method of taking photographs).

If it WAS possible to hide this (And I'd love to be convinced that it is) forever, I'd be this plan's biggest supporter. :)

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I don't want to hide forever. I think you just need enough time to prepare and to reach a certain level that would make trying to destroy/take over what you have built sufficiently hard enough that the small players wouldn't try it and the big players wouldn't think it worth the effort.

Could you imagine the response from the media and people in general to the headline "USA/Russia/China launches unprovoked attack on small group of individualists." ?

In my opinion media would be the key.

Once you are discovered begin a massive media campaign, ignore the reason why you built it (to escape statism and altruism) and focus on the peaceful aspects, the non-aggression/non-initiation of force, objective law absence of force by and from government, the existence of your constitution and "bill of rights", your "democratic" institutions. All the things that anyone in a free country on the outside would be able to look at and say... "Hey, they're the same as us... Why would we want to invade?"

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Could you imagine the response from the media and people in general to the headline "USA/Russia/China launches unprovoked attack on small group of individualists." ?

It would be painted as "militia" or "terrorists" or whatever bugaboo is current. They'd probably use "pirates" and try to claim you were pirating ships. Believe me, they know how to handle the media, and the media is all too happy to cooperate.

You know you are in for a bad day if you turn on the news and you see pictures of your house labeled "Zip compound".

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I don't want to hide forever. I think you just need enough time to prepare and to reach a certain level that would make trying to destroy/take over what you have built sufficiently hard enough that the small players wouldn't try it and the big players wouldn't think it worth the effort.

Could you imagine the response from the media and people in general to the headline "USA/Russia/China launches unprovoked attack on small group of individualists." ?

In my opinion media would be the key.

Once you are discovered begin a massive media campaign, ignore the reason why you built it (to escape statism and altruism) and focus on the peaceful aspects, the non-aggression/non-initiation of force, objective law absence of force by and from government, the existence of your constitution and "bill of rights", your "democratic" institutions. All the things that anyone in a free country on the outside would be able to look at and say... "Hey, they're the same as us... Why would we want to invade?"

Here's the thing: Though I agree that it's possible to get enough people on your side to make it so that the USA, and perhaps even Russia and China, would not go after you (Not that that would be easy), once you are revealed to the world, every looter becomes aware of a prime spot for looting. Any sort of pirate organization, environmental group, or dictatorial country could easily come to where you are and take over/destroy the seamount city.

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That's why an armed society is not only a good thing but a necessity.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers and I know the media can be led, it can also be a thorn in the side of the establishment. I'm talking about the new media as well, facebook, you tube, twitter... every possible avenue every possible means.

For those who are interested in this idea (and other similar ones) check out the Undiscovered Country link at the bottom of my signature. I've derailed this post for far too long already. :)

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Forgive me if I don't understand what you're trying to do here fully but..

What happens if somebody attacks the wave disruptors?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. The disruptors are just a cement protuberance on the side of the actual sea wall. Their only function is to help break up the force of incoming waves. They are not integral to the design, it would function quite well without them.

The principle is explained here somewhat.

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You know that google earth isn't a live picture right? You ever looked at how long it takes Google to getup to date images of populated areas in cities? I'd say it takes up to two years.

Another thing is that a satellites scan of a completely uninhabited expanse of ocean would probably be so cursory and at such a coarse resolution that it wouldn't even be noticed until it was well into construction anyway.

Satellites are expensive pieces of kit, how often would you say they spend their time looking at parts of the ocean that are over 1000km from the nearest piece of land when that piece of land is less than 5 miles square and none of it is in a shipping lane?

You are right all of this is a crazy idea, and very science fiction and we all know that crazy ideas never work... Like a comparatively small bunch of colonists defeating a world superpower and establishing a new form of government. :twisted:

Ok, ok, I'm convinced. Let's start looking at the logistics and getting elements on paper. Where do you suggest we start, Zip? Has anyone worked out the following:

How much space is needed?

How many people are needed at start-up?

How many people are going to be able to join in later?

What kinds & amounts of provisions are needed at start-up?

What is the safest way to obtain interim provisions?

What kind of product/good/service can be produced/offered to earn money and to whom shall it be offered?

All this you understand while construction continues ...

Being in the middle of the Pacific, well, sort of middle, and having a big enough seamount, how do we survive?

Need seawater filtration units/desalination on small scale at first, then larger.

Start with hydroponic gardening, recycle all organic matter, including composting waste matter, just to start having enough food.

Now - shall we go back to looking again at getting a portion of Canada, Western US or Western Australia to secede and form a new country? That might yet be the best bet... anyway, I'm definitely up for it, and hubby is too!

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I think you'd guys would be better off moving to a really miniature-sized country and/or island. My top picks would be: Liechtenstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liechtenstein), Isle of Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man), and Jersey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey). Isle of Man is definitely the best pick, due to its combination of low taxes, low population, location next to Great Britain, and being English speaking.

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Here's an interesting article re: governments cracking down on overseas accounts that used to be hidden from domestic taxing authorities. One rotten bastard gave them the ammunition that they needed:

It was Heinrich Kieber, a disgruntled computer technician in Liechtenstein, who struck perhaps the biggest blow against the fabled secrecy of offshore banks when he sold a CD containing information on thousands of account holders to the German government, which then passed it on to tax authorities around the world.

For cash-strapped governments the data amounted to a treasure trove. For the first time, in many cases, it provided them with the ammunition they needed to deal with the problem of tax-haven banks....

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id...8#ixzz0leAd1JVR

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