Clothing in relation to Self-Esteem

[Eiuol]

To what extent do you think the clothing one wears represents a one’s self-esteem? Is not caring about what one wears a sign of low self-esteem, room for the further growth of self-esteem, or neither?

I think that ignoring clothing – to the extent that you still pay attention about whether or not it’s in good shape and clean, though – is absolutely a sign of low self-esteem. I am not suggesting that paying attention to one’s clothing is the end-all indicator of self-esteem (after all, some people do things out of second-handedness), but an extremely important one. It is absolutely important to acknowledge that what you wear is important in self-identity. In a metaphorical way, clothing is putting your body on each day. You choose each part, none of it is up to chance. You declare yourself to be a particular way and implicitly declare that you are worthy of that identity. Sure, anyone can have self-esteem without focusing on clothing, but can anyone really say “Yes, that person is the prime example of high self-esteem” of them? Personal aesthetics are important in one’s identity because it shows something about a person. It’s a concretization of one’s sense of self. Neglecting this aspect reveals a sort of “Why do I even need to declare my identity?” To put high value on style and clothing, then, is to put high value on oneself. Low value on style, similarly, is placing low value on oneself. A lot of this viewpoint I am presenting here is related to what I deem the purpose of clothing to primarily be: aesthetic. If my viewpoint on clothing were primarily utilitarian – keeping warm in winter, for example – then there is little relation to self-esteem. However, I would still say in the modern world, clothing’s primary purpose should be aesthetic because of how it can be used to declare self-identity. It is the most obvious and concrete way to show your particular sense of life.

Any thoughts, and especially arguments against this, would be interesting.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Eiuol

[FeatherFall]

Interesting take, but some who dress poorly would claim their lack of attention to appearance as evidence that they are secure with their self image, therefore they have high self esteem. But I think that the occasion matters quite a bit. I don't think the outfit one wears while grocery shopping is a good indicator of one's self esteem. Most of the time I'd prefer to be in PJs, for instance, but that doesn't mean I'm depressed by the thought of myself. On the other hand, I'd never go to work or out for cocktails in PJs, and I'd almost never go to a costume party in them.

Edited April 5, 2010 by FeatherFall

[Hotu Matua]

I think clothing is an extension of your skin, of your body, and reflects your character.

But precisely because of that, it must reflect YOUR mind, not other people's mind.

How do YOU think you will look better?

Let me give you an example.

I normally work at home, in a home-office environment in front of my laptop.

There were days where I just jumped from bed to the computer in pijamas or underwear and kept working like that the rest of the day.

I realized one day that I wasn't feeling all right by doing that. Nobody was there to notice me or judge me, but I wasn't the Hotu Matua who deserved that sort of clothing.

So I started to take a bath, dress up, shave, put on lotion, etc. and then, do you want to know what happened?

I started working better, and behaving more professionally in my teleconferences or written messages.

[claire]

Hmmm- In We The Living Kira indicates that she never notices what she wears and is totally indifferent to the sandals someone comments on. Guess she must have had low self esteem.

[TheEgoist]

I just dawn my favorite punk band's t-shirt and whatever jeans/shorts are clean. I sometimes try to show a flare of individuality. I do enjoy standing out, and being a large and tall guy, it's pretty easy to. For example, getting a mohawk this weekend.

[bluecherry]

I know we can generally expect Rand to not be really sloppy and reckless enough to write an entirely unrealistic character psychology - extreme and rare, perhaps in a number of cases, but not absolutely contrary to how people could work in reality - however, just saying Rand put something in a story is not a well built argument. It would certainly be a plus if you'd give more of an argument than citing one fictional character, who, being fictional, technically could easily be written to not line up with how things work in reality. Furthermore though, Kira was in a situation where dressing nicely was extremely difficult due to lack of monetary and other resources, she didn't just through sheer laziness or neglect not really typically do much about her physical appearance, though I'm quite certain she'd still try to keep up with her hygiene at least. I'm also pretty confidant the point of such comments about Kira would be to contrast her with people who only and/or obsessively focus on just the image presented to judge people in ways and contexts that such things really don't apply and doing such judgments by and for very second-hand standards. The only options aren't looking certain ways to try to win people's approval by imitating what they think people should look like or just abandoning aesthetic considerations when it comes to how people would choose to present themselves. There are definitely many contexts and reasons such considerations can be overridden or put way on the back burner I'd say, but that's not the same as saying there are no conditions where it's a good thing to care about. Kira generally has her priorities straight basically I think, she knows how and when to focus on more important things. I'm pretty sure I remember some things related to appearance, like comments about nice silk stockings and then comments about stuff like how Sonia looked and kind of how it did match a rather gross attitude and ideology she had. (Sorry I can't give you exact citations, I don't have the book with me, I just read a friend's copy of the book years back.) EDIT: Ah, while I was typing a post was added. This paragraph was directed at Claire.

On a slightly different thread of this topic from earlier, you can do a lot aesthetically with clothing and other related things these days for sure, but I still don't think that is the *primary* purpose. The function comes first, it's like the context being set, and then once that's established you can decide what you want to do within the range of options available to you. It's a lot like how no matter how much more neat anybody may think some chair looks without any supporting structure underneath, if you were looking for chairs to put at the counter in your kitchen, this legless chair is still not accomplishing your furniture goal as you'd sit in it and be nowhere near reaching to use the counter comfortably. You may think the proportions on some pair of pants look really nice for whatever reason, but if it is far too narrow and two feet too long, it still isn't going to be what you'll be wearing out for any reason at any point. (I'd use a house example too, but I' pretty sure I've told you that one before.)

Edited April 6, 2010 by bluecherry

[Maximus]

Form follows function, in other words. I would not, for instance, be wearing a business suit while riding my Harley.

[Eiuol]

Form follows function, in other words. I would not, for instance, be wearing a business suit while riding my Harley.

Yes, I see what you mean. What I should say is that while form follows function is ideal, you should still aim to at least implicitly say something about yourself in the fact you are paying attention. Some may like to be consistent in their look, while I prefer to vary it. It is also important to recognize where you are going that day, because even though aesthetics are important, context will reveal what kind of aesthetic would be appropriate for yourself. It may have been a mistake, I think, to say aesthetic is the primary importance of clothing, it cannot be separated from its function. Neither form nor function is more important. However, I would say that mainly applies to designing. Aesthetic should be of top concern, not merely "is that jacket warm enough?" Yes, you probably should pick a jacket that is warm enough, but that doesn't mean you should brush its look aside as nothing more than a consequence.

I like your post, Matua. I was thinking about explaining something like that in my first post, but I see you've described, from first-hand experience, how why I think it matters what you wear even when no one is there to look.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Eiuol

[FeatherFall]

So I started to take a bath, dress up, shave, put on lotion, etc. and then, do you want to know what happened?

I started working better, and behaving more professionally in my teleconferences or written messages.

I feel a similar way when I go through my entire morning routine, but I think feeling better is more a consequence of the shower than of what I am wearing.

[CastleBravo]

I've actually been talking about this a lot recently. Personally, when I'm dressed nice (but for the occasion... not wearing a tux to Applebees) I feel good about myself. When I'm dressed sloppily I don't feel as good about myself. I like to make my clothing reflect how I feel about myself as a person; attractive, confident and put together well. I can't stand dressing down.

I feel my best in a suit and wish I could wear one all the time. Wearing a suit brings out my confidence to it's fullest.

[RussK]

I think that ignoring clothing – to the extent that you still pay attention about whether or not it’s in good shape and clean, though – is absolutely a sign of low self-esteem.

I have the same opinion. I've speculated on numerous occasions that people who don't try to look their best are kind of defeated people. I have the same opinion when it comes to personal hygiene. Interestingly, though I've never thought much about it until now, the clothing one wears can affect the opinions of others concerning one's personal hygiene. In the same light, spot judgments are made upon first encounter impressions, whether that impression is towards character, organization, or hygiene. That should be reason enough to pay attention to personal appearance and clothing.

[CastleBravo]

...people who don't try to look their best are kind of defeated people...

This is something I agree with entirely. Certainly there are some exceptions (not everyone has the same style. It would be wrong of me to think anyone not in a suit is 'defeated') but anyone I have worked with that dresses like a slouch has had low self-esteem and social problems. They don't think much of themselves so why should anyone else? Bad posture and loose, mis-matched clothing are sure indicators that a person doesn't take a very good look in the mirror.

[Eiuol]

I feel a similar way when I go through my entire morning routine, but I think feeling better is more a consequence of the shower than of what I am wearing.

Do you mean that a shower makes you feel "refreshed" and thus you have a little bit more of a positive attitude? I still think that the feeling is because of a sense of self-worth, because you are acting to better yourself. Maybe that is your point, but clothing can only further that feeling of self-worth and probably make the feeling last longer.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Eiuol

[FeatherFall]

Do you mean that a shower makes you feel "refreshed" and thus...

Yes, but I think a perfectly insecure person may feel the same way after a shower. I just don't think that clothing is a better indicator of self-esteem than anything else a person has - do they take care of their home, is their kitchen clean when they have the time to clean it, is their auto in working order, etc? The anecdotes you've provided show that you've met some insecure people who are also slobs.

What about the people who dress well but have a panic attacks when they get mud on their shoes? Might their clothing be a false indicator of self-esteem, and if so, how can clothing be a reliable indicator of self-esteem?

[Eiuol]

Yes, but I think a perfectly insecure person may feel the same way after a shower. I just don't think that clothing is a better indicator of self-esteem than anything else a person has - do they take care of their home, is their kitchen clean when they have the time to clean it, is their auto in working order, etc? The anecdotes you've provided show that you've met some insecure people who are also slobs.

What about the people who dress well but have a panic attacks when they get mud on their shoes? Might their clothing be a false indicator of self-esteem, and if so, how can clothing be a reliable indicator of self-esteem?

Are those types of people the norm, though? I do not think so. That is a second-handed person you're describing, sure, but I think it's safe to say you get an in general good idea about a person's self-esteem by looking at their clothing and the sort of attention they pay to their outward appearance which they can control. Clothing is a better indicator of self-esteem than keeping your kitchen clean or making sure your car is in good condition because it is declaring yourself to have a particular identity by means of your body. It is a placing a high value of your own body as well, because you are portraying an external image of your identity. Those actions you gave as an example can be indicators of self-esteem, but they are not as intimately connected to yourself. Cleaning your house would show you value your living space looking good, which you may value because it reflects that you see yourself as deserving of a house and deserving of making it appear how you want it to. Making your body look good is directly related to your sense of self, because it very much is what you are. There is no intermediate step in linking the action here to yourself. I cannot think of any more direct way to show your self-esteem than clothing or other similar means of expression (this includes manner of speaking too, as well as anything that alters your appearance).

[FeatherFall]

These types of people do not have to be the norm to make judging a person's self-esteem by the clothing he wears a foolish endeavor. There just need to be enough insecure people who dress well (and confident people who don't) to weaken a correlation between self-esteem and lookin' good. I think the numbers of such people are sufficient but I won't know unless there is a study or series of studies.

Let's think for a moment what such a study would require. It would need accurate ways of judging both self-esteem and fashion choices, both of which are dependent on factors that are numerous and hard to isolate, thus difficult to measure. You can't just take someone's word on their self-esteem, for instance. And think about fashion - who decides what does and doesn't look good? This could be an interesting study if all of the important factors are identified, but until that happens I think relying on intuition isn't productive. You've certainly seen people who looked like scrubs to you but who thought highly of their own appearance.

It may be true that you know lots of good looking, confident people. But because people tend to surround themselves with those they like, I have to assume you make it a point to avoid the types of people that I mentioned. This makes me believe that if you feel strongly about this issue, you're a victim of the confirmation bias.

Edited April 11, 2010 by FeatherFall

[mynameisyang]

You can choose to hide your low self-esteem or to express it.

[gags]

This is an interesting thread. My grandfather was a tailor who owned a men's clothing store and my father took over the store from him and ran it for about 25 years. I worked as a salesman in the store while in high school and college, so I grew up around nice men's clothing and I know something about quality clothing.... which seems to be increasingly scarce.

I agree with Eiuol's contention that clothing is at least one measure of self-esteem. As CastleBravo stated, I too would prefer to over-dress for an occasion than to under-dress for it. In fact, even though our office went to a casual look (shirts and pants for men, no suits or ties required) several years ago, I continue to wear suits, sport coats and ties on a regular basis. I'm just not a fan of the "Dockers" and a golf shirt look while at work. It seems unprofessional to me and when I owned my firm, I would always wear a suit to work, even when I wasn't meeting with clients. As far as I'm concerned, it meant I was serious and I was there to work and get things accomplished. There's no better builder of self-esteem than personal achievement and accomplishment.

In the same light, spot judgments are made upon first encounter impressions, whether that impression is towards character, organization, or hygiene. That should be reason enough to pay attention to personal appearance and clothing.

This is a great point. In business, you frequently meet new people and have very little time to make a good impression on them. Why risk making a bad impression by under-dressing or worse yet, dressing like a slob?

[Eiuol]

These types of people do not have to be the norm to make judging a person's self-esteem by the clothing he wears a foolish endeavor. There just need to be enough insecure people who dress well (and confident people who don't) to weaken a correlation between self-esteem and lookin' good. I think the numbers of such people are sufficient but I won't know unless there is a study or series of studies.

If they thought highly of their appearance, I would think that means they make an effort to look a certain way, thus there is an indication of good self-esteem. I haven't really discussed what sort of things constitute looking good regarding clothing. That would be a huge amount of content to cover. It's not so much "looking good" as much as it is "consciously portraying an external sense of self." The idea is that someone is putting forth an effort to appear in a certain way. "Looking bad" in this discussion would really just be putting forth minimal or zero effort into purchasing clothes and only do it so you don't freeze to death/get arrested.

In response to an idea of a study, what you could do is record what someone is wearing and then ask what level of self-esteem they think they have in addition to taking an existing sort of psychological test for self-esteem. Of course, the problem remains in figuring out what constitutes a conscious portrayal of a sense of self as well as what good looking clothing is.

It may be true that you know lots of good looking, confident people. But because people tend to surround themselves with those they like, I have to assume you make it a point to avoid the types of people that I mentioned. This makes me believe that if you feel strongly about this issue, you're a victim of the confirmation bias.

I have next to no empirical evidence actually (I have some). I only used reasoning here. So that's why I made the topic, hopefully people have first-hand experience that I don't have.

[TheEgoist]

"I only used reasoning"? Lol, then you have evidence. There is no such thing as reasoning without evidence. Not even Kant would make such a category mistake.

Anyway, I got that mohawk last night. You've never seen such a confident man.

[Alethiometry]

Just because someone chooses to not be fashionable doesn't mean they have low self-esteem. Putting together nice outfits and wearing great clothes takes time, especially if you're a woman.

However, I don't think it's wrong to choose to wear clean, well-fitting clothes that offer a great deal of utility, but may not be the most fashionable. Instead of spending hours on hair, makeup, etc. the person choosing to wear these clothes may decide their hours are better spent reading, studying, or enjoying time with their loved ones.

For example, I could spend an hour and a half getting ready every day and look my most fabulous. Or, I could spend 15-30 minutes getting ready for the day and look good. The hour or so that I save can be used for thing I value more highly than looking fabulous, like writing papers or working. Sometimes I do choose to look fabulous, but it's not every day.

[intellectualammo]

With the case of Kira, she was too busy BEING an individualist, then trying to SHOW it. Too many people TRY to look like they are individualists, then actually BEING individualists. In trying to look like it, you are dependent upon others eyes, judgments.

I think that it's entirely contextual. Narcissists, particularly somatic narcissists, like getting narcissisitc supply from the clothing they wear, attention it brings to them, etc. Now they have self-esteem issues, but that does not mean, like what Vicki was saying above me, that those that are fashionable, are then automatically those with low self-esteem.

I wear Dockers to work, black ones. Generally I take an approach more like Einstein did, except I don't have many of the same suits, just the same types of shirts and pants. I like what Anton LaVey wrote about on fads, and "slaves of fashion" in his The Devil's Notebook. I don't have time, or else I'd quote from my Kindle 2 from it.

Edited April 11, 2010 by intellectualammo

[Eiuol]

Just because someone chooses to not be fashionable doesn't mean they have low self-esteem. Putting together nice outfits and wearing great clothes takes time, especially if you're a woman.

However, I don't think it's wrong to choose to wear clean, well-fitting clothes that offer a great deal of utility, but may not be the most fashionable.

I would agree with that. Given what I've seen, clothes of utility are often great looking by most standards. Aesthetic is important, and just because something has utility does not preclude it from being "fashionable," if fashionable is to mean "of high aesthetic quality."

After thinking about the topic more, not paying much attention to what you wear may not necessarily mean low self-esteem, but what it can tell you is there is room for self-esteem growth. But I would still say paying attention to what you wear is a sign of high self-esteem, minus the exceptional cases of people who take vanity to the degree of ignoring or forgetting about other important values.

[Greebo]

On Saturday I went to one of my vacant properties. I wore paint stained pants and a paint stained shirt. I painted, worked on the final repairs, cleaned a fridge, etc.

I wear my paint stained work clothes with pride.

As I recall - Hank Reardon carried his clothes with assurance no matter what he wore too - be it suit or overalls.

[anonrobt]

Form follows function, in other words. I would not, for instance, be wearing a business suit while riding my Harley.

why not - Forbes did...